By Dr. Ed Gutteling
Dr. Thom Curtis gave the August address to the Conservative Forum for Hawaii on the topic of “Home-Grown Terrorism†on Sunday.
After his speech, the meeting was disrupted by many Hawaiian Sovereignty proponents who dominated the session with loud and acrimonious statements and prevented the usual civil discussion expected of the topic.
President Walter Moe began the meeting by greeting the 100 or so in attendance, and declared the objective of the Forum was to present conservative ideas and bring people together for discussion and exchange of ideas. Following the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, this opening tone was disrupted even at the beginning, when the acknowledged presence of several persons who are candidates for public office was given, which was greeted by scattered “boos†from a few in the audience.
Dr. Curtis then gave his talk, accompanied by a power-point presentation of his recent research in to the nature of home-grown terrorism. He began with his personal account of the 9-11 attack on the Twin Towers of New York. Although that attack was carried out by foreigners, since then there was a steady stream of terrorist acts and attempts, both in the United States as well as in other western countries, perpetrated by violent terrorists who actually originated in the west and were not foreigners. First mentioned was John Walker Lindh, a 20-year-old American from Marin County California, who was captured while fighting against Americans with the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001. He had converted to Islam while in California, attended mosque there and then gone to a madrassa in Pakistan for further study and then Afghanistan where he received training at Al-Farouq, a training camp associated with Al-Qaeda. He converted to violent jihad.
There were many others. Dr. Curtis went through a list of 2 dozen or so, including the 5-11 bombers of the commuter trains in Madrid that killed 191 and wounded 1800. Every member of that group was a citizen of either Spain or a western country, who had converted to violent jihad. Similarly, the entire group of London transport bombers were all British citizens, having been raised in the United Kingdom with childhoods similar to other English children, and again had converted to violent jihad.
Dr Curtis’s list included bombers of an English-speaking café in Israel done by two UK citizens who had traveled there from England for that purpose; Adam Pearlman, the son of a Jewish musician from California who had converted to violent jihad and was now putting out monthly propaganda after being recruited by the administrative section of Al Qaeda; US Army psychiatrist Maj. Nidal Hasan who shot dead 13 and wounded 30 at Fort Hood; the “Lackawanna Six†group of Yemeni-Americans in New York who attended Al Qaeda training camps and planned violent jihad; the “Portland Seven†Oregonians attempted to join Al Qaeda forces for violent jihad, and many many others. There were many examples form America, England, and other European countries.
Dr. Curtis pointed out that although much research and effort had been focused on foreign terrorists, little had been done on “home-grown†terrorists.
His research established several common elements:
All had grown up in very western areas, with typical western neighborhoods and experiences shared by typical western children. At some point, however, all of them had undergone a religious conversion within their western countries. They would attend mosque, but then other elements inside the mosque furthered their conversion to violent jihad. From there they went on to other training and then usually returned home to plot their actual terrorist acts. Sometimes these were coordinated plans, others were more individual.  Dr. Curtis was developing an extensive data base on these home-grown terrorists, and research was ongoing.
Dr. Curtis felt that the only way to get warning of these sorts of attitudes and plans would be by informers, or by penetration undercover of the mosques themselves, which presented special problems to implement. The west continued to be at risk for further such persons and violent acts.
The question and answer period then followed:
Initial questions were put asking why Dr Curtis had nothing to say on the terrorist act of the US government in denying Roger Christ bail for his marijuana related arrest, which was greeted by some applause.
Dr. Curtis replied his research was in another area.
Then questions were put as to why Dr. Curtis had not researched Christian terrorists, or right wing terrorists, which was greeted with some applause in the asking. Dr. Curtis replied that there were extensive data bases going back 20+ years on those areas, but that his area of research was new ground.
One profanity-laced questioner was admonished to clean up his language at this point. One questioner raised the point that these violent terrorists all seemed to have a nihilistic element in their beliefs, to which Dr. Curtis also acknowledged.
Shortly after, a series of apparent Hawaiian Sovereignty supporters dominated the discourse very loudly, with growing audible anger. One asked why he did not include several western figures from Hawaiian history as terrorists.
Another stood and rubbed an American flag on display, and shouted “this is terrorism,†indicating the US flag.
Another ranted for several minutes how she had spent 40 years working for Hawaiian Sovereignty and never come across any supporter advocating violence. She claimed only peaceful civil disobedience as her methods, in the spirit of Ghandi and with aloha, and accused Dr. Curtis of being an Agent Provocateur who was seeking more money for his research by actually encouraging violence in the Hawaiian Sovereignty movement. She said his even talking on the subject was insulting. Dr. Curtis requested that she please not shout at him.
At this point, President Walter Moe took the microphone, and asked for a change in tone, and more aloha. He was greeted with taunts that he had no right to use the word, and that he was abusing the word “alohaâ€. Mr. Moe kindly allowed all who wanted to speak to have a chance to talk, but the same tone continued and effective question and answer of Dr Curtis was minimal from there on.
After the meeting concluded, Dr. Curtis indicated he had a separate research project underway, without funding, that included 1-on-1 surveys of members of the Hawaiian Sovereignty movement, in which his research showed 94% were non-violent. That left 6% who could be.
Comments in the departing audience included how they were disappointed at the lack of civility present, with one stating “my take-home point of these folks (the disruptive Hawaiian Sovereignty audience) is that they are rude, angry and intolerant. So much for alohaâ€.
One apologized to Dr. Curtis for the rudeness, to which he replied “I’ve been through worse: gunfire in Palestineâ€
Next month’s speaker will be Linda Smith, policy advisor to Governor Linda Lingle, on a topic yet to be announced.
(Orthopedic surgeon Ed Gutteling is vice president of the Conservative Forum for Hawaii.)
August 23rd, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Attempting to raise the flimsy pretext for a war to a science proved laughable in little ol’ Hilo yesterday. And rightfully so. With every reason for the war in Iraq-of-foreign-policy and Afghaniscam daily wearing thin, this sociologist without a clue still knows that Blood Money grants for TWAT makes for a career. POHO!
Even the notion that 911 was orchestrated from tents and caves in Afghaniscam is part of the mental illness of America.
And if you dare watch any of the studies and experiments performed to challenge the government version of that bloody attack, you might find yourself deeply offended. Probably too offended to think that waving signs to indifferent Sheeple will amount to that hill of beans.
Accept this fact and all the terrible tragedies of war that has followed 911 will make sense.
911 was an false flag operation carried out by what is falsely touted as a friend of the US.
Who would do this murderous deed? Who had the Motive. the means and opportunity? Who benefitted?
Moslems? Communists? Nazis? Hawaiian Sovereignty people? zionists? Government agents? Roger Christie?
Get mad all you like. Some one is lying to you. You are being played like a fiddle.
Then wonder why the government gives no money to prove this.
August 23rd, 2010 at 1:19 pm
So the American Flag is a symbol of terrorism.
That ignorant mind set alone will insure that Hawaii Sovereignty will never be anything more than a bunch of loud and foul mouth individuals who come to what could be a civil discussion and turn it into exactly what happened here at this meeting.
When one becomes so blinded by ignorance of reality – the only words that can be uttered become foul. Cursing and use of foul language shows the real immaturity and further and most importantly, the lack of education these people have and are.
To steal what one senator once told another senator during a Vice Presidential debate, but directed to the Hawaii Sovereignty people whose ignorance, foul mouths and lack of education ruined this meeting “you are no Martin Luther King, Jr.”
August 23rd, 2010 at 1:54 pm
We have entered yet another activist era and people have once again discovered their voice. I remember growing up in the ’60′s when nearly every evening Walter Cronkite’s news had some portion devoted to one activist movement or another. While it would be nice if it was pleasant discourse I rather enjoy that people are rediscovering their right to freedom of speech. Folks are not the idiotic kool aid drinking astro turf that has been discussed and because they have intelligence they can decipher between what is acceptable and what is not. If the message is seasoned with overtures of threat or prejudice the dish being served will be refused.
As for why one thing was not discussed over another, there is only so much one can cram into a set time frame and more than likely it will be the presenter’s preferred salient points. Historically, homegrown terrorists have been in evidence…if it weren’t for our own founding fathers we might still be under the British rule. Our forefathers are the ones who picked up arms and rebelled against the then prevailing government. I do not advocate violence, terror or acts of war, but it is self deception to think that we arrived to the shores of America, claimed it as our own and discovered no one lived here before the early settlers arrived? But how far back does the presenter have to go if it was not his talking point to look at past occurrences but the cause and effects of contemporary homegrown terrorists.
Thanks for posting the article Tiffany. It was like being in the front row. Well done.
August 23rd, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Comment: “Even the notion that 911 was orchestrated from tents and caves in Afghaniscam is part of the mental illness of America. ”
ME: We sell everyone short who has taken to cave dwelling when we relegate them in the context. Prior to nine one one, the folks did not dwell in tents and caves. They had real lives out in the open. Most everyone singled out as part or parcel to the nine eleven event are highly educated and bright minded engineers. The alleged plot by the folks in Afghanistan was purported to have taken on its life over a longer period of time [1993-2001] planned quite specifically and executed nearly to the plan exactly. If you believe the alleged testimony of the folks who have taken the prideful mantle of being the ‘masterminds’.
Question raised: “Who would do this murderous deed? Who had the Motive. the means and opportunity? Who benefitted? ”
ME: Who indeed?! While I have serious credibility issues with some of the following hypothesis, the circumstantial evidence which has been brought together that supports the “911 Truth” folks is sufficient to raise some doubt in my mind as to exactly who was behind, who did benefit, and to what extent culpability may bloody the hands of some very prominent leaders from that time period. There are way too many holes in the conspiracy theory the ‘truthers’ propound like what happened to the planes that were supposed to have been used but allegedly never were…where are all the people who were supposed to be on those planes…but the one really interesting bit of photo theory is the damage to the Pentagon and the field in PA. Lots of questions. For now, it is far more comforting to accept the way it went down as most of us believe it did…and if it did, I would never underestimate the strategic minds of those who now dwell in or near caves. Never. They have shown the capacity for indefinite patience while they put together the strategical, operational and execution of any of their subsequent acts.
August 23rd, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Sorry, incomplete sentence: If you believe the alleged testimony of the folks who have taken the prideful mantle of being the ‘masterminds’.
I meant to say: If you believe the alleged testimony of the folks who have taken the prideful mantle of being the ‘masterminds’ then one cannot discount their abilities simply because of their lifestyle post tragedy.
August 23rd, 2010 at 2:41 pm
There is a large webpage with links to many related webpages, entitled:
“Violence and threats of violence to push demands for Hawaiian sovereignty — past, present, and future.”
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/bigfiles40/HawSovViolence.html
For example, one of the subpages notes modern propaganda portraying Queen Liliuokalani as a paragon of non-violence coequal to Gandhi and Martin Luther King, but the subpage provides evidence that she advocated violence including at least two occasions when she was a co-conspirator in using guns and bombs in violent events when men got killed.
Professor Curtis gave another presentation a couple years ago regarding his research on whether violence would be likely in today’s Hawaiian sovereignty movement; the webpage cited above includes links to a published news report and a pdf file containing the results of research done by himself and his students.
August 23rd, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Your TWAT fits a chauvinist mindset.
Note above.
Excuse me, Dwight. I need you to define TWAT… Where I come from that is an offensive term to describe a part of the female anatomy. If you have reached that point, your ass is out of here. — tceh
August 23rd, 2010 at 2:54 pm
I think this all is just a cover to justify your violent needs to hold on to our occupied country.
August 23rd, 2010 at 3:34 pm
The War Against Terra is my take from the The War Against Terror.
It is an acronym originated by a wretched government to wage vulgar, unprovoked war.
I have NEVER referred to any part of the female anatomy as TWAT. Seems as if you do, though.
Here’s a term you might find a useful acronym for:
(Omitted for vulgarity. This is your FINAL warning, Dwight Kondo. If you do not disengage from vulgar, threatening, and generally offensive comments, you will be blocked from this site. — tceh)
August 23rd, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Hi Ken Conklin: Thanks for your informative web link. And I thank great editor Tiff Camille for featuring diverse viewpoints. Any leadership [ergo political monarchy] based on blood inheritance and not merit is doomed.
August 23rd, 2010 at 4:28 pm
@Tiff–
My apologies. I now see where Dwight comes from – and from this point on – I will no longer reply to him. On any topic.
He is a fanatic – in a different way – but still in the same way – as the perpetrators of 9/11 were.
Personally, his use of the word you called him on was EXACTLY how you interpret it. Yet he would never admit it. And I see he never did answer you.
Because he truly is a coward. In every sense of the word and meaning. The same way he meant the word to be what you called him on.
I again apologize for causing you any strife.
August 23rd, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Attention commentators: You will be blocked from this site if your comments are profane, crude, libelous, threatening, antagonizing, incite violence, personally attack or insult other commentators’ wit…
August 23rd, 2010 at 5:32 pm
This conservative forum of Hawaii is just strange. They address hot button topics- of course people with strong feelings about these topics or related topics will come and cause a scene if provoked. People need to start using their heads. There’s consequences for every action. From cursing and swearing at a forum to hosting a forum in the first place.
August 23rd, 2010 at 5:40 pm
Thank you Tiff.
August 23rd, 2010 at 7:22 pm
RIGHT ON TIFFANY!
Attention commentators: You will be blocked from this site if your comments are profane, crude, libelous, threatening, antagonizing, incite violence, personally attack or insult other commentators’ wit…
ME: Good job.
August 23rd, 2010 at 8:50 pm
The attack on 9/11 was the single most act of mass murder in the history of the United States.
As such if anyone else was involved and has not been held accountable we must seek them out and bring them to justice.
I can not tell you what happened but I can tell you the official story is not true at least in how the twin towers and building 7 collapsed, let me explain for the simple reason if this is true others were involved and have gotten away with it. I believe every American wants to see everyone responsible exposed and held accountable.
I can tell you the official story defies the laws of both physics and reason.
I have worked in construction for over 35 years including concrete and in so doing worked on design with both architects and engineers.
1261 architectural and engineering professionals
and 9096 other supporters including A&E students
have signed the petition demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation.
http://www.ae911truth.org/
After watching the collapses many times I did not believe that 3 buildings only 2 of which were hit by planes could collapse at free fall speed into their own foot print so I did a search to see what experts thought.
What I found was that no steel and concrete building has ever collapsed into its own foot print after a fire or having been struck by a plane.
That means you have three one of a kind events that have never before or after ever happened for the reasons we are being asked to accept.
Here are what experts have to say. Again I ask these questions because I want everyone that was involved exposed and brought to justice.
29 Structural/Civil Engineers
Cite Evidence for Controlled
Explosive Demolition in
Destruction of All 3 WTC
High-Rises on 9/11
More than 700 architects and engineers
have joined call for new investigation,
faulting official reports
Gregg Roberts and Staff
http://www2.ae911truth.org/downloads/29_Structural-Civil_Engineers_2009-06-17.pdf
Here’s NIST’s Statement from their website “Did investigators consider the possibility that an explosion caused or contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?
Yes, this possibility was investigated carefully. NIST concluded that blast events inside the building did not occur and found no evidence supporting the existence of a blast event.
http://firefightersfor911truth.org/?cat=11
Heated Controversy: Do firefighters believe 9/11 conspiracy theories?
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20090410031539798
For some, the search for what happened on 9/11 isn’t over
By Jesse Ventura
You didn’t see anything about it in the mainstream media, but two weeks ago at a conference in San Francisco, more than one thousand architects and engineers signed a petition demanding that Congress begin a new investigation into the destruction of the World Trade Center skyscrapers on 9/11.
http://rt.com/Politics/2010-03-10/jesse-ventura-911-truth.html
Tonight and Tomorrow : Firefighters, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth Publically Expose 9/11 Myths
http://norcaltruth.org/2010/04/11/4522/
Explosive Testimony: Revelations about the Twin Towers in the 9/11 Oral Histories
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060118104223192
Muslims Suspend Laws of Physics!
by J. McMichael
jmcm5@lycos.com
http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/physics_1.html
The petition is open to everyone.
http://www.ae911truth.org/
I suppose it could have been an act of god but beyond that any educated person can see there are serious problems with the official story.
I want the truth my experience in construction, research and common sense tells me we have not gotten it. Others were involved and I do not care who they are I want them caught and punished. We went to war with 2 countries over this and millions of people have suffered because of it, the least we can expect is an explanation of what really brought those buildings down and killed all those Americans, sorry if that bothers some people but to bad.
August 23rd, 2010 at 10:42 pm
Stellar info Thomas, thanks for posting.
August 23rd, 2010 at 11:56 pm
I don’t know if any of you have watched the dvd ’911–In Plane Sight’ It was on Netflix and available for instant viewing and I watched it. Pretty heady stuff!!! It is no longer available for instant view but is available to order. Presented some very interesting information. I watched it. Then I asked my hubby to watch it. He was as blown away as I was. To Thomas, the discussion in this movie about why/how the 3 buildings came down is hard VERY hard to discount. The debunking of the conspiracies are just as credible as the conspiracies they are debunking. The in depth discussion on Pentagon building crash was moving. Again, while the hypothesis is titillating, intriguing — there are very glaring questions left unanswered if you follow the conspiracy theory down the rabbit hole. But, whether or not their [those called the truthers] conclusions and evidence is persuasive, they certainly ask provocative questions and have spared no effort in presenting their case as logical and possible, though they would say ‘probable’.
While I was at the August 7th Forum, a videographer for ‘WE Are the Change’ television http://treesoftruth.net/ spoke with Senator Kokubun about the 911 event and asked if he would be open to an investigation. I don’t recall exactly but I think they are hoping to follow up with an interview for their show. If they do get that interview I will try and find out when the program would air.
Whoever and whatever is ultimately responsible for the 911 Tragedy, it brought everyone to a clear state of consciousness regarding terror and since then we have been introduced over and over again to individuals who are here and plot to do bad things or are from here and plot to do bad things. ‘Here’ being the U.S. Sufficient time has passed that discourse can now happen and ‘fear’ is not the first thing that filters up into our minds. In fact, fear is way down the list.
August 24th, 2010 at 3:46 am
To think 9/11 was anything other than what it was – a group is Islamic religious fanatics – who did what they did – is a bigger problem in my opinion than the actual attacks of 9/11 themselves.
And the reason for this “conspiracy theory†and “false flag†attacks is quite simple.
Religious fanaticism.
In a different version – and in a different way.
It is impossible for some people to accept the fact the religion was the cause of 9/11.
I have never met a 9/11 “conspiracy theorist†who is an atheist or a person who does not believe in religion. (One can accept the falseness of religion but still believe in God)
The problem is – the same religious fanaticism that 19 foreigners who got into 4 American jets and flew them into the WTC, Pentagon with the fourth jet being stopped, is the same religious fanaticism carried out by killing abortion doctors, keeping same sex civil unions tied up in legal limbo while spending BILLIONS of dollars and it’s the same fanaticism that allows Pat Robertson to say the stupid crap he says every now and them. It’s the same RELIGIOUS FANATCICSM that allows Roger Christie to think he can sell Marijuana with immunity under the guise of RELIGION. Only it’s a different religion from the religion that attacked the USA on 9/11/01.
But to accept 9/11 as what is really was – a religious fanatical attack means then you got to real in the other injustices other religions cause.
Thus – we blame our government for 9/11. And we blame everything else because we are too afraid to accept the reality of what it was.
Have you heard about all the flack with Disney and the Muslim lady and her dress code issue? RELIGIOUS FANATICISM at it 100%.
I am not saying there is no God. I am saying we need to stop the RELIGIOUS FANATICISIM that was and is 9/11. We need to stop the RELIGIOUS FANATICISM that kills abortion doctors. We need to stop the RELIGIOUS FANACTICSIM that stops same sex civil unions.
But more importantly, we need to stop the RELIGIOUS FANATICISM that cause people to reject RELGIOUS FANATICISM that blames 9/11 on our government.
August 24th, 2010 at 5:28 am
Well here I sit in my piece of crap cubicle on the mainland just trying to scratch out a living…reading this and thinking “How did we switch places? I’m here, and they’re there?” Yay for well planned and executed gentrification!
August 24th, 2010 at 6:54 am
Our intelligence agencies are now operating virtually without oversight, using contractors to handle classified info and are infiltrated by foreign agents. A glimpse at Sibel Edmonds testimony is enough to scare anyone.
The fact that the Bush Administration had to be forced to open an investigation into 911 is a tip-off something was very wrong.
August 24th, 2010 at 7:33 am
Really sad listening to official radio recording of fire fighters ( they were getting these fires in control) coming down from 80 th floor, on stairs with their rescued office personal only to hear explosions many floors below them, then silence. Who would benefit. Israel, big oil, defense industries, the new towers leasee. Trials and firing squads are in order.
This is to big to be ignored. This was a big false flag with the blame on Muslims. We went to fight Israel’s war. How many times are we going to fall for this ploy. Wake up America your being sold out big time.
August 24th, 2010 at 9:57 am
The truthers are fools. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist or brain surgeon to see that two planes hit the twin towers and as a result the burned and collapsed. All the evidence is there and there is no other explanation that holds water.
As for the Hawaiian sovernty activists they are poor deluded people manipulated by unscrupulous crooks looking to gain power and wealth by pressuring the government to pay them off. There is no way the kingdom will ever be reestablished and they know it.
In fact the legitimate heir to the crown, Prince Kuhio was the person that introduced the first statehood bill in the US congress. He supported and worked to establish statehood from 1900 until his death.
August 24th, 2010 at 10:04 am
Correction: Prince Kuhio supported statehood from 1902 until his death. He was the first delegate from the Territory of Hawaii to the US Congress and introduced the statehood bill in 1919.
August 24th, 2010 at 10:09 am
THIS IS A COMMENT FROM SILVERPENNY THAT HE TRIED TO POST ON ANOTHER THREAD, NOT AT ALL RELEVANT:
We have to take responsibility for what happened during 911 and look within. It’s too easy to blame something outside of us (al queda, religious fanatics, etc…) and send accountability elsewhere. 911 in the U.S. already happened in Nazi Germany…same thing, different place. Watch the Naomi Wolf video first. It is very telling.
Naomi Wolf – The End of America
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
Secret Evil of 9/11 (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySMdAF-GACw&feature=related
Secret Evil of 9/11 (part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVU_pAIPLPc&feature=related
The Ultimate Con – 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIgoXQWiSlM
No more 9-11 Game Over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PCr8CyG1Sg&feature=related
Rare Pentagon 9-11 Surveillance Camera Video of Impact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paWiZ2Y8fRg&feature=related
9/11 Inside Job – The Most Damning Evidence Yet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezIU6ZxYU3A&NR=1
Bush Caught Lying About September 11th
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm73wOuPL60&feature=related
Evidence that George W. Bush had advanced knowledge of 9-11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlWSv0NZBRw&feature=related
9/11 Conspiracy – Crash Course #1 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNskClIyGfY
9/11 Conspiracy – Crash Course #2 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG4TzCtljHQ&feature=related
9/11 Conspiracy – Crash Course #3 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qNouhEo4V0&feature=related
9/11 Conspiracy – Crash Course #4 of 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB0uxfnwgm0&feature=related
Missing 9/11 Planes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2QAh0rBrew&feature=related
No Windows on Flight 175
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRC4lCQuBmc&NR=1
http://www.hugequestions.com/
Money, Masons and Alchemy (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i0BIXXXdVw
Money, Masons and Alchemy (Part 2)
August 24th, 2010 at 10:11 am
Like I said, fools.
August 24th, 2010 at 10:19 am
My father worked constructing the Towers. When I spoke to him the day after the attack, he told me there was no way an aircraft impact or fire, no matter how hot, could have caused such a collapse. When the third building went down, he asked me not to mention it again.
He has left the country.
August 24th, 2010 at 11:56 am
As I said before, if you think 9/11 was anything other than the religious inspired fanaticism that it was, it is because YOU desire to have YOUR version of YOUR religious inspired fanaticism remain intact.
If you think 9/11 was an inside job, then I bet you think abortions should be illegal, same sex civil unions are against the definition of “traditional marriage” and you agree with Pat Robertson et al.
It becomes so easy to blame our government than to blame the religious fanaticism that caused the 9/11 attacks because then you have to relinquish the other forms of religious fanaticism you hold so dear.
Post after post of youtube videos do not change that reality.
August 24th, 2010 at 11:59 am
http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
Go this link for some real science and engineering.
There was another building collapse recently that was nearly identical to the twin towers collapse. How do the truthers explain that?
August 24th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Had to check but a building in Delft, Holland burned and collapsed in a manner like the twin towers did. Until this happened Dutch engineers did not believe it was possible.
Of course the truthers will say this was just another inside job by a dark cabal of masons, illuminati and international bankers.
August 24th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
There is no way those 3 buildings collapsed at free fall speed into their own footprint because 2 were hit by airplanes. It defies the laws of physics.
If they had broken off in pieces or fallen over it might have been possible but not perfect free fall implosions. Like I said I do not know who else was involved, but there is much more to this.
For answers we should look at who was in charge of security for the world trade center?
For those that do not know it was Marvin Bush, the other brother of the presidant at the time, I think that is at the least very interesting.
One very disturbing question I want answered that has not been. Why was it never revealed who bought the massive short positions on the airlines in the days leading up to 9/11. They made hundreds of millions? It seems very likely they had inside knowledge of the impending attacks. So why is that information secret? I want to know who made all that money because of these attacks.
There are just far to many questions and 2 many Americans died to leave them unanswered.
Its not like we have not been lied to many times.
We were told Saddam Hussein supported Al-Qaeda…….That was not true, he hated them.
We were told we have irrefutable proof that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction…..That was not true…none were found.
The gulf of Tonkin….
The liberty attack…
Iran Contra and the drug smuggling overseen by Oliver North..
We have every right to question this and as patriots we must.
For ken’s benefit, not that its any of his business, I support a woman’s right to control of her body, civil unions and same sex marriage, I do not participate in organized religion, I walk with god in private, I do not use marijuana but have in the past and support regulation and the end of prohibition.
I am no religious fanatic and for good reason I do not believe we are getting the whole truth about 9/11.
As Americans we should demand an independent investigation to address the many unanswered questions for unity and closure, and to make sure anyone else that mat have been involved no matter who they are did not get away.
August 24th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Larry “Pull it” Siverstein took control of the WTC early in the year of 9/11.
…after that, how many months before 9/11 was it when the president’s brother Marvin Bush was put in charge of security at the WTC?
July 2001…. the authority to order shoot down of Airliners was taken from USAF for the first time ever. That authority went to Cheney.
Sept 11, Cheney sent the USAF fighters on a training exercise, far away over the Atlantic.
An Air Traffic Control Manager in NY shredded the audio tapes of statements made by the NYC area AT Controllers on 9/11…
Bush / Cheney stonewalled investigating 9/11. They ignored the Jersey Girls and other 911 families, until the Jersey Girls got on National TV and demanded an investigation.
Bush appointed Bin Laden family friend Henry Kissinger (Mr Fixit) to head the ‘investigation’. Henry stepped aside when the Jersey Girls demanded it.
Bush / Cheney agreed to be ‘interviewed’ but were not sworn in, and would not agree to be ‘interviewed’ separately.
NYFD firefighters were not allowed to testify at the 9/11 commission, regarding what they witnessed at the WTC on 9/11.
…those are just a few of the many coincidences which one MUST believe…..if one accepts the ‘new’ version of reality and the new physics of the ‘official’ version of who was behind the attacks of 9/11
For more, Google 9/11 coincidence theories.
When one sees all of the coincidences that MUST be swallowed with the government story…one might feel a bit of indigestion coming on.
To this day, a tight lid is locked on the identities of investors who profited from put options placed against United Airlines and American Airlines just days before 9/11.
and…..
Bush said “pay no attention to ‘outrageous’ conspiracy theories”…..while selling his own outrageous conspiracy theory to the nation.
One more:
Most people never even knew, and still don’t know about the neat, tidy and speedy collapse of Building #7……
However, the airliner strikes and the twin tower collapses were replayed on National TV thousands of times. Psycho-trauma-programming…ie mind control is one effect of replaying the tragedy so often.
By the way….we pay every good detective or DA to be a conspiracy theorist as part of the job.
August 24th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
@Thomas
I am sure your advanced degree in physics allows you to make the statement that WTC 1 and 2 and then WTC 7 fell on its own.
I am also sure that your advanced education in aerodynamics allows you to understand the difference in physical dimensions between a Boeing 727 – which WTC 1 and 2 was designed to withstand a direct hit from to that of a Boeing 767 which actually hit both towers.
I am also sure that you believe beyond any reasonable doubt from the day GWB took the oath to 9/11 – just about 9 months GWB had two 110 story buildings and one 47 story building wired and rigged to blow up. The thousands of people who would have had to have been employed to do that – all very dedicated union employees just must all now have amnesia – because not one has come forth to tell us that’s what they were employed to do.
Also to clarify – Marvin Bush WAS NOT in charge of security at WTC. He was a principal in the firm that provided security services to the WTC.
Believe me when I tell you the reluctance of people to believe what really happened on 9/11. When you can see clearly what 9/11 was – it requires you to reject almost anything you ever understood or knew.
It is very hard to accept the fact the humans, in the name of religion and God caused 9/11. I feel sorry for those who can’t see it – but I understand it.
The only “false flag†operation conducted on 9/11 was the false belief in a false God who does false things.
August 24th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
I guess the Trail of Tears under President Andrew Jackson was snot a terrorist act within the USA because these were not real people–”Indians. How many dieds on that little forced hike??
Roger Christie hiding behind the religious freedom guarantee of the Ist amendment? “make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” If roger can’t create a church let’s close em all. Pray at home!!
Seems to me The American Government is hell-bent on undermining its own legitimacy by, with a lot of help from corporate “friends,” suiciding out.
The Hawaiian sovereignty movement is trying to make America PONO, but, alas< da poah buggah too dumb for see. IF YOU NO KNOW PONO, YOU STAY THERE!!
August 24th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
don’t forget the nano thermite residue covering the entire area or the huge glob of molten metal under the rubble or the nine Jewish ( Mossad ?) building a platform out the window of the 90 th floor or the speedy removal of the rubble before any testing or the chairman of the 9/11 commission’s book about how the gov holding back informatiom or 15,000 plus hour 767 pilots saying no way they could have flown that flight but pilots trained in a Cessna 172 could or 1000 engineers say no way those building can fall by plane strike or firemen, police and a FEMA video of building detonations OR OR OR OR just how stupid can Americans be ???? Well Buba lets go on a crusade and kill Muslim’s we got lotsa money and guns, well maybe just ask China for a little bit more. Gee Buba were goin broke what happened I got no job and just lost my house.
August 24th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Lord save us from people that reject science and reality and pursue conspiricy theorys. To believe the stuff the truthers put out you have to reject all the empirical evidence and instead believe in things that just plain do not exist.
August 24th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
As far as I know, most truthers think Bush was not in charge, and that Cheney was likely in charge at the white house that day. Norman Mineta’s testimony incriminates Cheney.
For a sufficient period of time pre-9/11, Ace Elevator Co and Marvin Bush’s security firm were in place to facilitate installation of the demolition systems.
To imply that truthers say Bush was in charge is a Strawman tactic, an assumption which is a form of misrepresentation. Same goes for saying “union workers” would have amnesia.
Union workers?…. In a covert mass murder operation?
Sheesh.
Also….There is a problem with saying something like:
… “no one has come forth to tell us they were involved in the operation”…
The problem with that is….How would we know if someone had come forth? In other words, it has to get on the news ie major media. Otherwise, the mainstream public will never know that someone talked. That stuff appears on the web, maybe.
Example: Certain NYFD witnesses did not get to go on the record, and they never got on the news.
Control of the key systems of information delivery (media) is all it takes to prevent us from knowing about anyone confessing or spilling the beans. These NYFD witnesses are on YouTube, not CNN or NBC etc.
August 24th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
[i]
“I am also sure that your advanced education in aerodynamics allows you to understand the difference in physical dimensions between a Boeing 727 – which WTC 1 and 2 was designed to withstand a direct hit from to that of a Boeing 767 which actually hit both towers.”
[/i]
A wtc architect can be seen on youtube explaining that they designed the structure to withstand a 707 crash, not a 727. The 707 is close to a 767 in mass, and much bigger than the 727.
August 24th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
A wtc architect can be seen on youtube explaining that they designed the structure to withstand a 707 crash, not a 727. The 707 is close to a 767 in mass, and much bigger than the 727.
August 24th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
oops, sorry for unintended duplication
August 24th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
Ken you are entitled to your opinion and me mine like it or not. You may be partly correct but its hardly the whole story and nothing you or the government has said explains the way those three buildings collapsed, at free fall speed straight down into their own footprint.
You continue to make sweeping condemnations of anyone who disagrees with your beliefs, a bit fanatical for my taste, but I will try to address your accusations.
It took me over a year to believe the government would lie about this. I didn’t believe it but now I am convinced of it. I never once accused anyone or said said I knew who did it, just that we are being lied to.
Its not that I didn’t think the government lied to us just that didn’t think even they would not lie about this.
I was wrong they are lying. Why I do not know and have not speculated about. Again to be absolutely clear, I have not accused anyone only said others were involved.
Here is the video that most impressed me. If you only watch one I recommend this one. It shows other buildings around the world that have similar construction and have had fires worse than the WTC. It also explains the construction and how these type buildings react to different stresses. This is the one that sold me.
9/11 Truth In 9 Minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0K4GY7TK28&feature=player_embedded#
Why can’t we ask questions? Who is afraid of what we might find out.
Having built with concrete and steel including reinforced and ferro cement over 35 years and working with architects and engineers quit a bit I have a better than average comprehension of the strengths and weaknesses of building with these materials.
I have also done building demolition. I have talked with and watched lectures by people that are experts on the subject and am able to understand what they are saying.
As I have stated I watch the video of the collapse more times than I can remember and in the end I believe what my eyes tell me. Not what some one else would have me believe. I have seen nothing that can explain 3 buildings collapsing at free fall speed into there own footprint.
You seem incredibly hostile to anyone that has questions about what happened why?
Here are some videos the first three are a renowned Architect who I consider very much an expert on the strengths and weaknesses of steel and concrete buildings.
The others gave me pause and convinced me we must ask for an independent investigation.
Ken you are questioning my qualifications to my opinion, but have not explained why we should believe your rhetoric. Your post are almost hysterical calm down and explain your position with out all the confrontation. More people will listen to what you have to say if your not so fanatical, IMO.
9/11: Blueprint for Truth – The Architecture of Destruction pt.1/13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv9tko0n5LA&feature=related
9/11: Blueprint for Truth – The Architecture of Destruction pt.2/13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iCTORjDi_E&NR=1
9/11: Blueprint for Truth – The Architecture of Destruction pt.3/13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9DR9rxekiY&feature=related
9/11: DAN RATHER SAYS WTC COLLAPSES LOOK LIKE DEMOLITIONS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvx904dAw0o&feature=related
Fear & Silence: Dan Rather speaks out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7oxH95dy5g&feature=related
Dan Rather: Unbelievable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HuNyhdVPs8&feature=related
Dan Rather reveals how the Corporation controls the Media
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW0gGy_95Qw&feature=related
Marvin Bush the WTC Power-Downs Just Prior to 9 11.flv
August 24th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen:
If the 911 Truthers be anywhere close to any of their assertions, which the majority of Americans find credible, then that event is nothing short of the establishment of fascism in the US.
And I say right here, loud and clear to Ken and CC Manuk and other irrelevent obviscators, you’re either less than honest or fascists. No not either, both! Sieg Heil, you, you…Mutha’s Of False-flag Operations!
btw Ken, I already exposed your dishonesty in early posts so I can understand why you would want to avoid anymore factual dialogue with me and maybe disclose who you are…coward?
Kiss my Okole!
(das da’ low burner Tif, but the guy is one S-H! Dis ain’t as much fun anymore when I can’t flame out banana’s like Ken!)
My creativity is shackled! Literacha’ again loses to what is construed as ‘civility’.
I going try cope, dough’.
August 24th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2010/08/24/pn.lesbian.moms.daughter.rejected.cnn?hpt=T2
A link to a CNN video.
Watch it.
Now tell how the “teachings of the catholic religion” were written to deny this child an education because of the choices made solely by her parents?
Further, and then let’s look at the “teachings of various sects of the Islamic” religion as it relates to the education of girls.
These two dramatic examples of religious fanaticism first and foremost are the direct cause of 9/11 and further shows that if continued another generation is brought up uneducated and blinded by the same religious fanaticism the generation before them had.
Keep believing in your myths and conspiracy theories. And keep yourself blinded by the real truth that will eventually destroy the world.
RELIGION!
The real conspiracy is religion – and yet you are just too blind to see it!
August 24th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
@Ken, I find your blaming of 911 on “religious fanatics” to be facile and, in the sneakiest of ways, bigoted. You don’t come out and name the Islamic faith, but that’s what you mean. My equally facile, and only slightly less bigoted, answer might be, “It’s not religious fanaticism, it’s monotheistic fanaticism that is to blame.” And you could not have a credible answer to that, because the faith you malign is a monotheistic one. But that is not my reasoned response.
Please realize that these people have questioned, and continue to question, the happenings of September 11, 2001, because the citizens of the United States have never been told the whole truth. And although “you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time” is a truism, it is nonetheless true. Our BS meters go crazy at the official story, which you claim to cling to.
I’m not sure that any religion, fanatic or otherwise, would be sufficient to motivate someone to die in an act of terrorism if that person has a hope for a good life. In fact, I’m pretty sure that no one who has a reasonable hope for the future would do something like that. I am a religious fanatic to some. (To myself, I am a person of faith.) People look at me with wonder or shock when I tell them how I am taking a stand on the basis of my religion, and I am risking nothing more than a period of freedom, not my life or anyone else’s. Taking an act that will surely end one’s life, and may end others, is another thing altogether. It takes real desperation to convince a person to do that kind of thing.
Terrorism is the tool of the desperate. Period. And further compounding the misery of such people, such as building a wall between them and their farmland, only heightens the desperation.
Terrorism is also an act of war. How long will we have wars? “Until the philosophy that holds one race superior, and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned…”
So long as we continue to define those who agree with us in positive terms and those who hold other beliefs in negative terms, we will continue to have war. Your blame of “religious fanatics” instead of seeking the real human geopolitical cause is in itself an act of hostility. If you actually want to understand what is happening in the world, you must look for the real reason, not simply mouth bigoted generalizations.
Sincerely,
A Real Religious Fanatic
August 24th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
THE OILMAN’S DUTY
all rights reserved
by Dwight Kondo
December 5, 2006
Puna, Hawaiian Kingdom
note: I just got my old pc back up and retrieved this and a host of older writings.
Plutocracy: governance by wealthy: the rule of a society by its wealthiest people
I just replayed some video footage of the collapse of the three WTC towers during the 9/11 attack. All I can say now is what I said then: NO WAY.
No way could those giant towers collapse into its own footprints without engineering. Though I am not an engineer like Osama Bin Laden, I played building blocks from kindergarten thru second grade and no kid I knew could get even a three level stack of blocks to pancake down without the use of well-placed explosives. Falling down on itself three times in a row that day was as likely as me getting my second grade teacher, Miss Kuwada, to marry me when I grew up. Sweetly, she told me she wouldn’t wait though she did threaten to hold me back for being disruptive when experimenting with crashing blocks.
That initial flunking in the subject of romance could easily explain my contrary view to most things this government purports. Take for example edicts like pot is bad and war is good, or, that there really exists that annexation treaty between the US and the Hawaiian Kingdom disproving Hawaii’s current occupation.
Fiction is the most important function of government. A prime example is the illusion of elected governance versus the reality of that inversed Golden Rule, ’He who has the gold…’ Wouldn’t it be a more honest government that just went ahead and made every dollar bill a ballot allowing those who had the most money to be in-charge? Well?
But alas, we are a ‘free people’ requiring our plutocrats and oilmen not behave so ham-fisted and at least rule with subtlety.
Still, there was nothing subtle about 9/11. The oilmen and the plutocrats were already deathly impatient. What was it? Was it China and India coming online needing the biggest petroleum fix in history? Or, rising and dying oceans and cataclysmic climate changes and mass migrations due to ‘global warming’? Maybe it was the decline of the American standard of living eroded by the equality of ‘globalism’? Or was it peak oil, the looming economic crash and the need to prepare the US for dictatorship?
The US war party in Iraq is led by oilmen believing it their duty to control the world’s oil via hook or crook or war. Aptly, oil, with a drop of water, shares the hues of pooling blood mixed with earth in a desert sun. How far would our plutocrats go when the rest of us, who can’t handle the truth –that dollars ARE the real ballots—can’t be trusted with the real knowledge of the oilman’s duty?
I proffer 9/11.
Just imagine if Miss Kuwada had waited until I returned from Vietnam and completed college to marry me. Our kids would be loitering around draft age just about now. I would hope, for the world’s sake, their second grade teachers had declined their proposals of matrimony too. And don’t forget those building blocks.
Mahalo, Tiffany
Aloha & Mahalo Ke Akua!
August 24th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Highly-Credible People Question 9/11
9/11 Commissioners
Congress
Military Leaders
Intelligence Professionals
Scientists
Structural Engineers and Architects
Legal Scholars
Family Members and Heroic First Responders
Psychiatrists and Psychologists
Thousands of Others
http://www.911summary.com/
August 24th, 2010 at 11:10 pm
As someone who lived not 45 minutes from ground zero on that day- allow me to tell you folks the real truth. take it from someone who’s still all ( past tense of popular slang word describing sexual intercourse) in the head about it:
Every hospital in the city was code Orange.
I ran to my rooftop in time to catch the second tower collapse.
We NY’ers traditionally abrupt, rude were in fear for our lives, our families, friends and homes. the world we knew was in a disaster.
and for the next few weeks- The city that never sleeps suffered an uneasy insomnia.
there’s your truth. people died, lives were screwed up forever.
so you can take your theories on how and why it happened and keep them to the myriad of message boards across the internet. because everytime another conspiracy theory surfaces its akin to digging up the remains of those who died and throwing them deeper into the ground and piling more dirt on top.
consider the survivors and the families of those who died and the ones who died before another obscure “truth” is apparently compelled to be shared. and then think:
Does it really matter? It’s never going to bring anyone or those buildings back.
August 25th, 2010 at 2:40 am
What does it really mater !!! evil people are taking us down a very bad road and your wellbeing is involved, like it or not. Look around at whats happening, it’s in slow motion but still sliding downhill.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:50 am
I am blaming ALL religion – not just Islamic. Not just catholic. ALL
Here – another example of the destructive power of religion:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/24/stem.cell.funding/index.html?iref=allsearch
My point being – the same religious fanatical viewpoints that caused 19 people to hijack 4 American jets and do what they did on 9/11 – is the EXACT SAME religious fanaticism that has not filed a lawsuit to stop stem cell research.
The EXACT SAME religious fanaticism that allows a catholic school to deny a child of two lesbians an education.
The EXACT SAME religious fanaticism that does this:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/08/25/afghanistan.girls.sick/index.html?hpt=T2
Religion is our enemy of today. Not anything else.
A cure for cancer was just stopped by religion. Education of youth was just stopped by religion.
And Emily is “going to church.”
The sole single cause of more deaths world wide for over 2000 years is religion.
That is our enemy.
And religion keeps you from seeing it.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:58 am
@Rev Nancy
When you realize that religion is the real terrorist – then you will understand.
Just to clarify, that does not mean there is no God.
August 25th, 2010 at 8:08 am
rj: It does matter. just like we tend to think that solving any heinous murder, might let the departed rest in peace. Who knows?
911 led to war. Does that matter?
It sounds as if the pain you and others felt is enough to just drop it from here on in.
You drop it then. It’s still a fee country.
Nobody is digging up the remains of those who perished that day.You exaggerate and try to make ghoulish those who want to expose the treachery.
Others are still intrigued or annoyed by the inconsistencies. You can live with what I call the ushering of fascism in the US, das fine, lady, other won’t. You are wrong to tell others to stop the search.
If it is too painful for you, do like the rest…look the other way.
Stopping the inquiry to protect the dead is utter nonsense.
August 25th, 2010 at 8:51 am
Ken:
Religion does not cause wars. Wars are propelled primarily by economic forces. Religion is often just the ideological justification for carnage.
I love your rants.
August 25th, 2010 at 9:27 am
Just to clarify: Dr Gutteling said that a profanity laced comment was made after Curtis’ speech. for the record these “f” words were from the mouth of a white man. which matters not a whit! BUT
Hawaiians are cajoled into sticking within the delicacies of the Aloha Spirit while the foreigners pick pocket the aina and the freedoms guaranteed by those who stole the house from those who welcomed them. there is so much BS out there it gets difficult to breathe at times, time for a cup of t. which reminds me…
the other day my grand daughter welcomed me with “aloha tutu T, let’s have a party!” Gee, I thought a tutu T party, why not… all welcome, no swearing, ‘olu’olu ‘oe.
August 25th, 2010 at 9:37 am
I agree with Dwight on the causes of war. People are often reminded of the co$t$ of war (“The current “action” is costing the US taxpayers trillions”).
What they don’t point out is that the money doesn’t just disappear; Someone is MAKING trillions. Follow the money; it knows no religious, political, or ideological boundaries.
August 25th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Religion causes human death.
Thru war, thru fanaticism, thru killing abortion doctors, to killing homosexuals, to killing innocent human lives thru suicide vests, thru ending stem cell research, thru denial of human advancement and education.
I could go on, but then I’d be ranting.
Trivia question no 1. What is the name of the new drone plan unveiled by the President of Iran?
Sanity question no 1. If you could have the cure to every virus and every diseases ever known and every to inflict the world in the future, and the sole single price to obtain that cure was the killing of a 10 year old child would you kill the child?
August 25th, 2010 at 10:25 am
There is enough evidence to conclude others were involved.
Those 3 building did not collapse in the manner they did as the sole result of 2 being struck by planes.
It makes no sense to let who ever else was involved get away with this, we already went to war with to countries on the pretext they were involved with the attacks, and we are waging a not so covert war in Pakistan also. The least we could expect is an explanation of why those buildings collapsed in a manner consistent with a demolition. The one we have does not fit the facts.
In order to collapse at free fall speed straight down all of the support columns had to give way at the same time in all three building. That is an imposable occurrence, under the conditions that existed. If the columns did not give way in perfect sequence the building at best would fall over or pieces would fall off, that is not what happened.
What the video shows could not have happened because 2 of the buildings were hit by planes. That is my sincere opinion and millions of other Americans agree with that observation.
That said we need to know the rest of the story, and whoever else was involved must be exposed and brought to justice. To do any less would truly be disrespectful in my opinion.
Call it a conspiracy theory or what ever you want construction is my business, I know what I know I can not deny it. There is more to this and we must find out what else happened that day.
August 25th, 2010 at 10:26 am
You just cannot beat the power of religion when you want otherwise sane people to do insane things…such as voting for psychopaths, for example.
Then there is the psychopaths’ bonanza of Endless War ie the War on Terror. How could we ever have such a dream come true without religion?
Thereby, today religion(s) are fulfilling one of the purposes they were made for…controlling the masses and making war for special interests.
Just ask: Who benefits?
This is not to say that good people don’t do good things in religions…it is at the upper levels of the power structure where corruption and evil focus.
9/11 dovetailed nicely with this latest round of the holy wars. Would it have worked so well without holy fervor?
August 25th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
I dedicate freedom’s cause to our Vietnam War combat veterans. Their prodigal abandon speaks to a core component of human nature not seen in these times — our soldiers never fell short of courage and compassion, and we recognize our greatest generation of unsung and untold Vietnam War soldiers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hayden
Hayden’s work often addressed the plight of African Americans, usually using his former home of Paradise Valley slum as a backdrop, as he does in the poem Heart-Shape in the Dust. Hayden’s work made ready use of black vernacular and folk speech. Hayden wrote political poetry as well, including a sequence on the Vietnam War.
On the first poem of the sequence, he said, “I was trying to convey the idea that the horrors of the war became a kind of presence, and they were with you in the most personal and intimate activity, having your meals and so on. Everything was touched by the horror and the brutality and criminality of war. I feel that’s one of the best of the poems.â€
http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/g_l/hayden/life.htm
Hayden’s command of technique makes possible his innovations both within and against the symbolist tradition. Hayden’s thematic movement from racial or experiential specificity to fundamental commonalities relies heavily upon a symbolic system. The sordid and oppressive nature of black political life (often represented through the slave trade or the Vietnam War) finds synthesis and resolution in the symbolic realm. Thus Cinquez in “Middle Passage,†or the cereus in “Night-Blooming Cereus,†or Bahauallah in “Words in the Mourning Time†offer spiritual emancipation and renewal in a realm over and above the physical and limited. Here Hayden’s faith as a Baha’i is central as it reinforced his belief in “transcendent humanity,†a spiritual or psychic unity of mankind capable of overcoming divisiveness.
“Monet’s ‘Waterlilies’â€
Today as the news from Selma and Saigon
poisons the air like fallout,
I come again to see
the serene, great picture that I love.
Here space and time exist in light
the eye like the eye of faith believes.
The seen, the known
dissolve in iridescence, become
illusive flesh of light
that was not, was, forever is.
O light beheld as through refracting tears.
Here is the aura of that world
each of us has lost.
Here is the shadow of its joy.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/foolingwithwords/lesson2.html
As the gook woman howls
for her boy in the smouldering,
as the expendable Clean-Cut Boys
From Decent American Homes
are slashing off enemy ears for keepsakes;
as the victories are tallied up
with flag-draped coffins, plastic bodybags,
what can I say
but this, this:
We must not be frightened nor cajoled
into accepting evil as deliverance from evil.
We must go on struggling to be human,
though monsters of abstraction
police and threaten us.
Reclaim now, now renew the vision of
a human world where godliness
is possible and man
is neither gook nigger honkey wop nor kike
but man
permitted to be man.
Through an explicit litany of atrocities, Hayden scrutinizes the contradiction of an honorable America guilty of inconceivable carnage. He then calls for a moral struggle to earn our “humanness.†The “monsters of abstraction†which “police and threaten us†are the conjectural creeds and ideologies which, throughout history, have caused pogroms and genocides, including the racial discrimination he was victim to. Just as Hayden uses physical images to drive his poems, he believes that the concrete expression of any “ism†should manifest itself in a way that unifies rather than destroys.
Consider the ironies in Hayden’s life. He was born in a ghetto called “Paradise Valleyâ€; he was legally blind yet became a writer. Think of an irony from your own life and write a poem in which you examine it. It may be humorous.
In addition to Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Robert Kennedy, Hayden wrote about other great leaders who labored for “this beautiful and terrible thing, needful to man as air.†Hayden wrote about Crispus Attucks, John Brown, Paul Laurence Dunbar, Paul Robeson, Harriet Tubman, Malcolm X, and others. Write a poem about someone you admire who has sacrificed for the benefit of others. Be as specific as you can.
By Peter E. Murphy
Robert Hayden (1913 – 1980) was one of four poets remembered at the 1998 Geraldine R. Dodge Poetry Festival where Stanley Kunitz and others shared tributes, remembrances, and readings of his work.
Examine the complex relationship of Hayden’s beliefs, life, and art.
Articulate themes in Hayden’s poetry.
Understand how poetic subtlety can be more effective and powerful than overstatement.
Robert Hayden, the first African-American Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress — a position now called the U.S. Poet Laureate — is a writer whose work can enrich the lessons of both English and social studies classes. Not widely known until the last decade of his life, Hayden’s reputation has been increasing as new audiences discover the beauty and strength of his poems. While his remembrances like “Those Winter Sundays†and “The Whipping†are widely anthologized, other poems like “Night, Death, Mississippi,†“Middle Passage,†and “Runagate, Runagate†(about slavery and its consequences) are less well-known and are a wholly original contribution to American literature. Students will be inspired by Hayden’s commitment to a vision of world unity inspired by his belief in the Bahá’à Faith, “where man is permitted to be man†and is not regarded as less human because he is different.
August 25th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
The USS Maine blewing up in Havana Harbor instigated America to go war with Spain. End result the gain of territories (including Hawaii) from a decline world power.
Fact: The USS Maine had an internal explosion. Kill a few sailors, one ship…small price for Manifest Destiny.
Pearl Harbor attack was anticipated and details of this ‘non’ surprise attack well known by FDR.
Gulf Tonkin Incident that escalated Vietnam war, never happened.
For some poor souls, it is impossible for them to grasp that their country is a trouble maker and will kill its own people or contrive events to justify war.
Claiming religion is the cause of war is like saying
atheism makes one peaceful.
Religion is the mere window dressing to hide greedy economic interests.
Ken, shall we wage war against all the churches so that we may have peace?
August 25th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
I wish the truthers and other nut cases had more money. I bet I could sell a ton of house lot in Kalapana to them. Beautiful ocean front property, might have to wear asbestos shoes to view it but that shouldn’t be a problem for these guys.
BTW Hawaii was not aquired by the US as a result of the Spanish American War. I sure wish some of you bozos would get an education and stop reading the hogwash on conspriciy sites.
August 25th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Crazy Chicken, I can see where you got your name. It fits you well as you run around in circles cackling about your superior powers of deduction…..You crack me up.
Cluck, cluck, cluck you just keep laying eggs………..
August 25th, 2010 at 11:25 pm
http://www.youtube.com/user/PunaticCyberCafe?feature=mhum#p/u/19/uz48PeexVVk
Low Battery or i would have taken more
When the speaker started, I sat in the front row eager to listen to what solutions the professors research had possibly uncovered. within 5 min or so i got up and walked to the back of the room.
My thoughts were that he was focusing to much on Fear and not addressing solutions. Focusing on all our fears has allowed THEM to pass and keep in effect the patriot act in the name of safety. I do feel his speech was inflammatory(fear mongering) but I’m not certain it was intentionally so. the next day I went and met with one of the Hawaiian Representatives that was there( his name slips my mind right now but his office is on Mamo) We talked at least an hour and he has agreed to introduce me to his circle of influence in Kau in the next week or so.
Try not to focus on the fearful issues…try to focus on the solutions…
Part of which is open government, complete freedom of information, and giving people freedom from oppression and securing basic living necessities. EDUCATE
August 26th, 2010 at 12:06 am
Hey Crazy Chicken,
What is a conspiracy, in your opinion please ?
August 26th, 2010 at 12:18 am
Chicken Poo might be a better name, kind of goes with the thinking
August 26th, 2010 at 12:24 am
Curtis always opens my head, thanks
August 26th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Bob Dylan – When You Gonna Wake Up
God don’t make promises that He don’t keep You got some big dreams baby, but in order to dream you gotta still be asleep.
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up When you gonna wake up strengthen the things that remain ?
Counterfeited philosophies have polluted all of your thoughts Karl Marx has got ya by the throat, Henry Kissinger’s got you tied up in knots.
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up When you gonna wake up strengthen the things that remain?
You got innocent men in jail, your insane asylums are filled You got unrighteous doctors dealing drugs that’ll never cure your ills.
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up When you gonna wake up strengthen the things that remain?
You got men who can’t hold their peace and woman who can’t control their tongues The rich seduce the poor and the old are seduced by the young.
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up When you gonna wake up strengthen the things that remain?
Adulterers in churches and pornography in the schools
You got gangsters in power and lawbreakers making rules.
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up When you gonna wake up strengthen the things that remain?
Spiritual advisors and gurus to guide your every move
Instant inner peace and every step you take has got to be approved.
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up When you gonna wake up strengthen the things that remain?
Do you ever wonder just what God requires? You think He’s just an errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires.
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?
You can’t take it with you and you know that it’s too worthless to be sold They tell you, ‘Time is money’ as if your life was worth its weight in gold.
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?
There’s a man up on a cross and He’s been crucified for you Believe in His power that’s about all you got to do.
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain ?
August 28th, 2010 at 8:07 am
Wow. Almost everybody who posts on this blog is a 9/11 truther. It appears that a large group of totally insignificant paranoaics have assembled in Puna where they all smoke dope and talk each other into ever crazier conspiracy theories. But then, that is old news.
August 28th, 2010 at 9:48 am
9/11 truth hardly started in Puna its a world wide movement. If you want to stick your head in uncle Sam’s okole go ahead your statement Mr. X demonstrates your lack of intellect.
Twin Towers’ Evidence Blows Away Fire Theory
Written by James Smith
http://www.ae911truth.org/
The catastrophic destruction of the World Trade Center complex is said by government reports to have resulted from structural failure due mainly to fires initiated by the impacts of the airplanes. A closer look at the evidence reveals a much more disturbing crime.
Coast to Coast AM 9/11 debate with Richard Gage and Dave Thomas
On Saturday August 21st, 2010, Richard Gage, AIA from Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, and Dave Thomas a physicist from New Mexicans for Science and Reason, joined Ian Punnett on Coast to Coast AM for the entire program of 4 hours to debate how the World Trade Center buildings collapsed on September 11, 2001.
Physicist Kim Johnson and chemist Niels Harrit joined the discussion in hour three.
September 1st, 2010 at 3:53 pm
[...] to Jherrie Rubeyiat-Lumane for his HTH letter on the Conservative Forum talk by Dr. Thom Curtis. We all look forward to Mr. Tom Anthony’s perspective from a Conservative Hawaiian [...]