• Greetings Tiffany,

    I’m pretty busy these days, spending long hours.  I can’t really keep up with my correspondence.  And please, I don’t want to talk about my trial, guilt or innocence, because the court is already in the process of devoting quite a bit of time to doing just that.  But I do have something to say that needs saying:

    In the 36 years since I was first a mother, although improvements can be seen in lots of areas–from birthing alternatives to charter schools to improved opportunities for women, the situation with child care is pretty much the same as it was. Parents have to choose between big child care facilities or private sitters and worry…too rigid?…not enough structure? …too impersonal?…and what about sick days?  Often it’s a day by day struggle as Mom tries to do her job and yet raise her children.

    Children are the greatest resource of our community.  Period.  Yes, their well-being is the primary job (and more) of their parents, but society as a whole also has an interest and a responsibility in their healthful–and righteous–upbringing.  We depend on them to carry on…well, everything society cares about.  So why don’t we provide childcare rooms at the county council and the courthouse?  A place where a mother (or father) can take a cranky child to feed or for a nap or to spend supervised time while the parent participates in government?  We spent plenty on the new courthouse; for example, every courtroom has a wheelchair lift from the judge’s chambers to the courtroom proper, in case we ever have a judge who uses a wheelchair.  Couldn’t some part of that money have been invested in our future citizens?  Lots of folks have struggled for equal access to government.  That’s why we have the wheelchair lifts, headsets for hard-of hearing, Braille on elevator buttons, interpreters for those who don’t speak English but must interact with the courts.  Why is childcare always piled solely on the child’s parent?  Don’t we as a society value our children?  Don’t we want to care properly for our greatest resource?  Don’t we want their parents to be a real part of “we the people”?  I don’t think that’s why.  I think we care deeply about our children, all of them and not just our “own” children.  Maybe it’s because working mothers (and fathers) don’t make enough noise about the problem. The disability access came as a result of years of struggle, after all. So why aren’t these parents organizing to earn the right to childcare?  The fact that those intense infant and toddler years are brief is part of the reason, but the biggest part is this:  Working parents are usually just too BUSY to take on one more thing.

    One Louve,
    Rev. Nancy (Harris)

    Posted by Tiffany Edwards Hunt @ 6:30 pm

61 Responses

WP_Blue_Mist
  • Rick Says:

    I am not sure I understand the problem with the court and accessibility. I do volunteer work there at least once a week, and know that virtually every room, office, etc., is accessible. The real problem you discuss above is child care for those who must attend the court, and that is a difficult issue, as it comes down to $$. How much more is the public willing to pay in taxes so that all state and county facilities have childcare facilities and personnel?

  • Hj Says:

    Nonsense. I think this s an insight into left leaning politics. Do not tell me what kind of plants I can partake in, but please make sure that we account for and take into consideration every minute demographic we can identify.

    Government and Businesses already pays for paternity and maternity leave for their employees. How much more must we pay to address an issue that is temporary for whom it affects?

  • Rev. Nancy Says:

    I guess I wasn’t clear enough. It’s about priorities. The designers of the courthouse went to great pains to make it accessible to those with disabilities. That’s good, but perhaps putting wheelchair lifts into every single judge’s chambers was excessive. (Couldn’t the theoretical judge who uses a wheelchair swap with one of the others? Or are we expecting multiple appointments of theoretical wheelchair-jockey judges?) Lots of $$ were spent on that endeavor, and lots more are spent each month on a monstrous utility bill, making sure to keep the place cold enough to keep a polar bear comfortable. Facilities for the disabled are there because we as a society have determined that our government facilities should be accessible to the disabled. Apparently we have yet to decide that they should be accessible to parents. Couldn’t we turn up the thermostat a couple of degrees, open one of those empty conference rooms, and hire a welfare mom (thus getting her off the dole) to care for multiple children? The polar bears might complain, of course, but they don’t vote.

  • Mike Middlesworth Says:

    I think the wheelchair lifts are for not only judges in wheelchairs, but also lawyers and other parties to lawsuits who need access to the chambers….

  • Tom Lackey Says:

    Well here we go again, more reasons to hate The Lack……

    Gosh….I was going to stay out of this nonsense but you are pushing too many of my buttons. Being a family is simply that a family, you chose to have children that was your choice so live with it. The world should not be geared to make life easy on mommy and daddy because you want it that way. If that is what you want then the family unit should pay more in taxes to pay cost while they have children of dependent age. The more children you have the more you should pay and when the children are raised to legal adulthood then your taxes go down. Today’s liberal world works just the opposite the more kids you have the more tax break you get. Lets face it the most money spent in today’s society is directly related to “the children” and now you want more. Ounce again the liberal mind takes shape and as usual, it ain’t pretty.

    Lets put child care facilities everywhere and have them maned by welfare Moms, every supermarket, doctors office, movie theater, come on lets put them everywhere. One small problem is that you couldn’t get a welfare Mom to go to work if you used a cattle prob unless you set up a separate care facility for her kids while she went to “work” and she made lots of free money along with the entitlements she is already getting. Wake up liberal America, stop spending my money, my income is fixed and you keep sucking more because you want things better for yourself and don’t give a crap about people like me.

    The lack

  • Tiffany Edwards Hunt Says:

    OH, WOW,
    now it’s a Lack v. Tiff challenge.
    Lack, I want you to go back and re-read what you wrote. Everywhere that you have written “family” or “daddy” or “mommy” or “child” or “children,” exchange that with the word “elderly.”
    This conversation reminds me of an episode of “The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.” Let me fish for it and provide you the link:
    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-11-2011/lactate-intolerance

    Yes, folks, I think we have a case of “lactate intolerance.”
    Let’s take the suggestion of Lack and friends. Do away with all entitlements — no exceptions! Make those seniors dig their own damn graves, will you?! Who needs “ADULT DAY CARE?” Let’s keep those seniors working to pay for their own funeral plans!

    (Do you see how lame that sounds?)

    If you have a SENSE OF COMMUNITY, you see that we have to restructure our society in hopes of saving humanity. You wonder why we have so many sociopaths?

    Try to think deeply about that mom on welfare that you condemn. Maybe she is on welfare because she can’t get a job with an employer sensitive to the fact that she has two children. She might be the most qualified person to be hired, but she is discriminated against for the fact that she has two little ones. So, because she can’t get a job, she’s on welfare.

    Try to think about that elderly person on disability that you condemn. She might be on disability because she lived a long life of ABUSE from a male chauvinist husband who had a chronic gambling and drinking problem.

    If we are not willing to care for the poor and downtrodden we might as well dig a pit and toss aside anyone and everyone that needs some kind of aid. That would be the mommies, daddies, children, elderly, even the veterans. If we do that, we might as well give up on ourselves as a civilization.

    Plenty more to say on this topic if you would like me to say some more…

    Obie, yes, this was initially about a child — not crying — in the courtroom. The child was breastfeeding.
    The mother is seeking to continue to work while also parenting. This is called keeping her bootstraps pulled.
    Lack, it’s pretty hypocritical to condemn a breastfeeding mother who is seeking to work and not milk the system. Hello?

  • Obie Says:

    Right on Tom !!!!

    The only thing I can add is that everyone forgot the original problem.

    The baby made a noise and they were asked to leave.Reasonable request,it is hard to hear in a courtroom.I have been in a courtroom when the judge threw an attorney out for having a cellphone vibrate and the judge had previously told everyone to turn their cellphones off.

    So I guess along with the childcare room we need a cellphone room,loud fart room,snore room,etc.
    Aw you get it.

    Right on Tom !!

  • Hj Says:

    Here is a question an it has been on my mind lately.

    Why do liberals hate greed so much? A lot of people on the left want to control development, control the making of money, etc. They want balance and abhor greed. But here’s the rub… The left wants government to pay for everything and take care of everyone. You know who funds the bulk of government? GREEDY PEOPLE! People who make a lot of money and want to make more.

    In my mind… If I were a liberal who wants all of these entitlements. I would want the rich to get richer so I could contnue to collect on sloths programs their tax money pays the bulk of. Instead the left wants to figure out ways to limit the monies that people make, tax them more and expand government spending further.

    I don’t see the logic.

  • Hilo35 Says:

    Maybe your sense of community isn’t what you think it is.

    How did anyone back in the day get by without any of these entitlements? How about when someone needed help, another was there to volunteer their time and help out. This used to work whether it was a baby or an elderly person.

  • Hj Says:

    didn’t mean “sloths programs”. meant “the programs”

  • Tiffany Edwards Hunt Says:

    Hilo35,
    This is true. And in this day and age volunteerism is more seldom than common. That is why people seem to look to government for what conservatives would describe as a hand out, I suppose. My utopia would try to shape communities to design day cares for the children and the elderly proximate to the areas where people work, dine and shop.
    Regarding the courthouse, there is a courtyard in the middle of it. Imagine if that was an area for children to play or the elderly to roam while their parents or grandchildren or caregivers were doing business inside the courthouse. Imagine if mothers of speeding tickets or witnesses in homicide or aggravated assault trials could sit outside the courtrooms and view a television monitor to follow what is going on inside the courtroom. It doesn’t take a romper room to accomplish simple goals of practicing common sense. If I’m trying to go to the courthouse to do business, I can imagine there are plenty others who are going to the courthouse to answer to a judge for a crime, not knowing who or how to have their children or elderly parents cared for while they accomplish this task.
    And regarding me trying to be able to continue to practice my craft, years ago, when the Hilo Judiciary Complex was being built, my opinion was sought for how the courthouse could be improved. I advocated for a press room. I obviously was in the minority on that call, because we didn’t get one.
    Maybe with the Kona judiciary, we could see a press room and a room for breastfeeding mothers or people who might be a distraction to the court but who still should be able to follow proceedings via a television monitor.
    simple fix in my mind.
    but for some reason conservatives think that is an entitlement problem.
    As I was saying about the Daily Show, lactate intolerance.
    Change the words “children” or “child” with “elderly” and tell me that I’m just some liberal who wants to spend more hardworking Republicans’ money. Republicans were babies and they will grow old too. let’s try to envision a community we can all be happy to live in… Stop putting dollar signs on everything. There are ways to fix problems without money. It’s called shifting perspective.

  • Hilo35 Says:

    I’ll tell you this, I am neither Republican or Democrat, but I do side with the “Republicans” in your argument if you are advocating for taking more tax dollars to pay for a room so you can breastfeed.

    There is a reason government buildings have all the bells and whistles, they are using other peoples money. Just like my teenagers, easy to spend when daddy is giving the money.

    I am really interested to hear your story because you are a business person and on one hand you are talking about not making enough money from your website, and on the other you feel taxes should be raised so that things that will benefit you get built. How about we shift perspective and realize we don’t need these fancy buildings, and all the waste that goes into this socialist welfare system, that way the working people can keep more of there money. With more of this money around, if people then want to choose to donate money to your nursing room then so be it. Isn’t that a fairer way for you to get what you want rather then demand the government take it.

  • James Weatherford Says:

    children compared to farts?

  • Hj Says:

    The difference between being a parent with child and being a minority, disabled, etc. is that having a child (most of the time is a choice). Secondly having a child and not taking them to some sort of childcare is almost always a choice.

    You choose to have a child. The world doesn’t have to guarantee that things will be easier or that the world will accommodate you.

    There are already government programs that assist with child care. They are already giving you access to help for your “choice”. Choosing not to send your child to a daycare program because they do not meet your needs, or you want to spend as much time as possible with your child is a choice. It is not incumbent on the rest of society to support you financially or make accommodations for that choice.

    We all make choices in how we live our lives. Should the government take into account every individual choice that a person can make and accommodate each and every one of them? Where does that stop?

    You know the Rev. Nancy posited an interesting question at the end of her post…

    “So why aren’t these parents organizing to earn the right to childcare? The fact that those intense infant and toddler years are brief is part of the reason, but the biggest part is this: Working parents are usually just too BUSY to take on one more thing.”

    Maybe the answer is a bit easier then that. There are probably thousands of parents who go to the courthouse annually, probably quite a few on a daily basis. Is it conceivable that the majority of them have childcare. Work with the system as presented and have no issue with bringing their children there? I have been to the courthouse only a handful of times over the last couple years, and at no time ever did I ever say to myself. “you know what I wish I had a place for my kids to hang out”. The reason is that most people are there to conduct business, and for the majority of people it is far easier to conduct business without a child then to have one there. And the ones that have to bring their children there want to get in and get out, and really aren’t looking to find a play area for the kids.

  • tia Says:

    young farts, old farts, equally smelly. :)

  • Tiffany Edwards Hunt Says:

    I am actually trying to get my baby down, so I can get to work. It’s difficult to invest any significant time tonight in this conversation that appears to be an energy suck, really, particularly when I’m being labeled as having an entitlement attitude for the fact that I’d like to be able to tag my breastfeeding child along with me to report on a court proceeding.
    I think, at this point, I’m just going to say I’m neither Republican nor a Democrat, but I’m certainly a l a c t i v i s t.
    I don’t see where in my writings I have advocated for any tax increases.
    In fact, if all my hopes and dreams were fulfilled, we would see our tax dollars decrease and we wouldn’t need such a big courthouse.
    I would love to see less laws, less rules and regulations, less government really.
    If our society weren’t looking to government for everything, we might actually have an improved society.
    Rather than condemn me for wanting to be productive in society and a good mother at the same time, be glad you as a taxpayer aren’t paying for my kid’s child care.

  • Matt Says:

    having sat in on the jury selection, there were several young mothers who had child care issues who were excused, and one sees many mothers with small children in the Circuit Court because they have some legal issue to deal with. so, there is clearly a need for some sort of place where parents can leave their children while they deal with court issues.

    Many of the folks one sees in the traffic court are there because they didn’t have enough money for registration or insurance, so clearly they won’t have money for child care when they come to resolve their issues, and unless a family member is there, they have to bring their child into the court room…

  • Hilo35 Says:

    I would say you are advocating for higher taxes if you want more added to these government buildings. Where else would the money come from when they build these things.

  • Hj Says:

    @Matt – do you have any actual data on this or is this purely anecdotal?

    The state subsidizes child care (see link http://hawaii.gov/dhs/dhs/self-sufficiency/childcare) The State does not subsidize owning a car or registering a car. That is a luxury. So your argument that people who can’t pay for registration or insurance cannot afford healthcare is mute because the State will subsidize their childcare.

    @Tiffany – as a lactivist (I like the title) your issue is actually quite specific. Yet it also has a set end date on it. Rather then moving mountains for this issue, isn’t it just easier to have Matt send you reports and call it a day?

  • Hj Says:

    not “healthcare” – “childcare”.

  • Doc Says:

    Ayn Rand is rolling in her grave. I would rather see a kids’ room in the courthouse than pay for subsidized golf, a blank check to the Pentagon, or police chasing around potheads; a kids’ room would be much more useful and money better spent.
    We don’t hate you Lack, but it sounds as if yours is over flowing. Get off my lawn you little F#@%^$#!

  • Hattie Says:

    The fact is that many people are totally hostile to mothers and children. They would never admit that, of course. It is imperative that parents stop trying to accomodate themselves to people who basically hate them and instead simply insist on their rights, for themselves and for their children.
    It’s a huge civil rights issue. Where is that next generation going to come from to take care of all you selfish people in your old age? You would never talk about blacks and other minorities the way you talk about moms and children.

  • Hj Says:

    as a parent I find it offensive to even try and compare having a child to being a minority.

    you should actually narrow the perspective, if there is any hostility its toward the concept that its so impossibly difficult to have both a career and raise a child. There are sacrifices that are made on both sides, some that are easy and some that are hard. Make your choices, but stop comparing being a parent to being a minority or being disabled. That is offensive.

  • Hj Says:

    As a left handed person I am totally frustrated with the lack of lefthanded door knobs, car doors, books and other such things that the righthanded majority just shoves on people like me. Sometimes I think its only the Japanese who get a person like me with their forward thinking ways and lefthanded magazines.

  • Hj Says:

    Shouldn’t they have the “PUSH “PULL” labels on doors spelled backwards “HSUP” “LLUP” for dyslexic folk?

  • Tom Lackey Says:

    Trying to talk with a liberal is like masturbation without any pay off, for the most part it is just a waist of time and it just makes me tired..

    Tiff,

    You can not make a analogy between childcare and senior who need care, that is just plain ridiculous and you should know this. Children until they become of working age contribute nothing to society, they only contribute to the family unit spreading utopia to the unit and for the most part are supported by society. Seniors on the other hand have been working all of their life paying taxes to support others [children] and now that they are no longer able to contribute to the liberal world of entitlements you have a warped thought process thinking they are not worthy of any comforts.[dig their own graves, please give me a break]

    I don’t want to quote your post and start a pissing contest with you over who should get what part of my tax dollars. The fact is liberals want more than I can give and they offer nothing in return for my bucks but slanderous accusations on how my money should be spent and it’s always on them.

    The lack

  • Tiffany Edwards Hunt Says:

    Ah, Lack,
    If you read books like the Continuum Concept, you understand my parenting style and you see that if you raise your children well, they will actually want to take care of you when you are old. They won’t leave you to the government to care for, putting you in a government subsidized nursing home and never visiting you due to deep-seated resentment from abandonment and neglect in childhood.
    Hj, I get what you’re saying — that’s why you haven’t seen much coverage from me on the religious use of marijuana trial… I’ve basically shrugged my shoulders and said, fine, I’m not going to be seeking out a babysitter for this.
    The fact is, though, I actually have to be at the courthouse on Thursday to testify against a woman who shoplifted from our store in December 2009 (wheels of justice turn slowly.)
    I might have mentioned that I went to the courthouse to testify in her case about a month ago but she waived her right to a speedy trial and got the bench trial postponed. (I had arranged for my husband to take off work to come hold the baby, so I could go up to the stand and testify without having to hold him.) Imagine the frustration when the woman waived her right to a speedy trial (even though she has had since December 2009 to meet with an attorney), and we were told we were going to have to come back again some other time.
    Due to the fact that judges don’t allow children in courtrooms, there is a whole lot of arranging and rearranging going on for me to be able to get to the courthouse on Thursday. My husband will take time away from production to cover the shop instead of going with me into town to the courthouse. A friend of mine has agreed to come with me and, because I don’t have an entitlement attitude, I’ll be ensuring that she is paid for her time and energy.
    So, let’s just hope that the bench trial isn’t postponed again.
    There is a lot of time and expense involved in rearranging schedules in order to accommodate this no-children-in-the-courtroom policy. It’s also a lot of money wasted when a woman such as the one who stole from our shop gets to postpone her court proceedings.
    A grown woman chose to steal from my family, and I would like to see to it that she is held accountable for her actions. So, we will exert this energy in order to see to it that I get to that courthouse and testify against this woman.
    That’s just me. Imagine all the people in and out of the courthouse on a daily basis who have children. So many have no other option but to bring their children and let them run wild, jumping over the couches, running down the halls, etc. (I’ve witnessed unsupervised children in there.)
    If you are going to protest paying for a room for people to sit in with their children, imagine how many children’s day care expenses are being subsidized by your tax dollars. Don’t you think it is better for us collectively as a society that our children are with their mothers than at a day care?
    I can’t for the life of me understand conservatives who condemn women and children. It’s like they were never children or they have mother hate or something. To me, it is so odd, particularly knowing that this debate started as a result of a working mother seeking to be able to bring her baby to a court proceeding. Hattie, I agree with you 100 percent.
    Yes, Doc, Ayn Rand is probably turning in her grave. Not just for the subject of this conversation, but the state of the world.
    I’m actually trying to not personalize any of this stuff, it’s a very interesting debate. I have to wonder if anyone is going to change his / her minds. We are who we are… The Lack wants to call me a Liberal, well, so be it. I can only hope that one or both my children appreciate my attachment parenting and take care of me when I grow old and can’t care for myself any longer.
    I have to wonder at what age do conservatives think is appropriate for retirement? When is the appropriate age to start collecting that government issued check / insurance (i.e., Social Security and medicare)
    Should breastfeeding moms who can’t find child care to be able to work sign up for welfare? You know what EBT stands for, right? Eat Better Tonight. Gee, should I just shrug my shoulders and sign up for the Joneser card, or what?! You’re telling me we can’t work with our kids, so who is going to fund the food I’m going to need, the toilet paper I’m going to need to buy? In this day and age when you need two incomes in a family to pay for everything that living requires, how do you expect people to make it? Should we just give up our small business, sell our property, go on welfare and seek out County housing until our children are old enough to send to boarding school?

  • Hj Says:

    @Tiffany – excellent questions. If the discussion is to rid one cost for another better alternative then that is a discussion. If its the best of both worlds then its hard to justify taking on further costs associated with this issue.

  • Clayton Says:

    I find it interesting, and more than a bit sad, the responses to Nancy Harris’s question as to why do we allocate so much of our resources into a court house instead of putting some of those resources into child care? I see that as an honest question as to how we manage our resources.
    She did not mention left or right, Republican or Democratic, or anything about raising taxes yet almost all the responses were in a political framework. Why bring in Democrat or Republican, left or right, into this conversation?

    If our economy was moving along with plenty of liquidity, and we could afford it (which I do not believe is the situation now) why not have a child care center at the court house?
    I saw this as a management question as to how we use our resources, not a political question as to which side is the right side to be on.
    Ben Cayetano had it right when he said the question is not whether we should have Big Government or Small Government. The question is how much government we need, and no more

  • Doc Says:

    Someone sent this to me today. I think I received it by mistake because I already knew this. They must have meant to send it to Tom. :)
    US Federal debt increases by U.S Presidents:
    Reagan —–186%
    Bush I —–54%
    Clinton —41%
    Bush II——72%
    Obama –23%

    Source: Congressional Budget Office

  • Doc Says:

    P.S. “You’re “entitled” to your own opinions, but not your own “facts”.

  • Ken Says:

    @Doc

    There are just some people that get so confused with facts!

  • hugh clark Says:

    I feel this series has a disconnect. Emphasis on handicap accessibility at new courthouse is fueled by the federal ADA, which may have cost more investment on this island ha any single factor in last decade.

  • Tom Lackey Says:

    Well it’s time for me to hop a plane to bring my wife home from the hospital again. You see I’m her caregiver and she depends on me and I look forward to caring for her. Her failing health and being a recent amputee that is on dialysis she needs my help. So I don’t have much time to ponder about where my tax dollar should be spent to make a mommy feel good about where she breast-feeds her new baby.

    Please don’t talk to me about entitlements I have paid my whole life for SS & medicare and still maintain a private insurance policy with Kaiser for my wife’s health care. Feeding rooms at the court house…please…give me a break.

    Everything that I do is for the fun of it except when it comes for my wife’s health, that comes from love. Barbara pays me back every day when she looks at me and her eyes say thank you Tom, I love you.

    The Lack

  • Hj Says:

    @Clayton – why not? Because its frivolous.

    The State provides a system for Child Care that covers the most people as possible.

    In regards to the Rev. Nancy’s post, the issue here is not just a little issue of childcare at the courthouse.

    She says: “Yes, their (children’s) well-being is the primary job (and more) of their parents, but society as a whole also has an interest and a responsibility in their healthful–and righteous–upbringing.”

    If Society has an interest and responsibility in the healthful-and righteous-upbringing of a child then we should be allowed to mandate (as a society) that you should take your child to Day Care (we are already paying for it anyway). This is the rub here. The Rev. Nancy advocates in her post for the individuality and personal perspective of how a person can raise their child, but at the same time she is saying that its societies responsibility to help support (financially) the individual decisions that parents make in regards to parenting. That is a load of BS.

    This is entitlement at its very core. “I want you to let me do what I want to do and how I want to do it without any interference, but wherever my choices lead to a short fall, I want the PEOPLE (Society) to make up for those deficiencies.”

  • Hilo35 Says:

    Clayton, I agree that this isn’t about Republican or Democrat, Conservative or Liberal. Each term has such a wide variety of meanings that by throwing it out there it just confuses the argument. In one post Tiff is both a progressive liberal, and a fiscal conservative.

    I don’t understand a conservative who condemns woman and children either, but what category of conservatism is that. If anybody the government is enforcing this rule, not people who are fiscally conservative.

    No one is telling you that you can’t work with your kids. They are telling you these are the rules of the workplace if you want to work there. Now that you know the rules, you can figure out if you want to work or watch your children. All of us with children make this decision, and we figure out what works best for us. If you feel throwing baseless accusations is the way to go, whether it is venting or if you really feel it will get you what you want then by all means go for it.

    That government is best which governs least.

  • John Says:

    Doc, I think the numbers sent to you were chosen for a particular appearance. Looking at the amount, rather than the percentage, each president increased the debt gives a somewhat different impression.

    Reagan: 1.692 Trillion (8 years)
    Bush I: 1.587 Trillion (4 years)
    Clinton: 1.54 Trillion (8 years)
    Bush II: 4.899 Trillion (8 years)
    Obama: 4.013 Trillion (1/20/2009 – today)

    http://www.businessinsider.com/national-debt-increased-under-obama-faster-than-any-other-president-2011-8

    http://thenationaldebtcrisis.com/the-national-debt-by-president/

  • Ken Says:

    Regardless of what you think of child care, let’s not use Hannibal and Aline Gadhafi child rearing methods and logic as parents as the examples!

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/08/28/libya.gadhafi.nanny/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

  • Tiffany Edwards Hunt Says:

    LaCK,
    Just remember that we are hard-wired for a compassionate response.
    What I can say to you in the midst of philosophically disagreeing with you to the max: focus on that love for Barbara and nothing else.

  • Tom Lackey Says:

    Tiff,

    as you do for your family I do for mine.

    Some have small hills to climb and some have large ones.

    Who’s hill is the biggest in the eye of the beholder, childcare and adultcare have been going on since the beginning of time. Who should benefit the most, the young or the old, again is in the eye of the beholder. I used my situation as an example and have not gone into detail as you feel is necessary for you to do with yours. Tiff, you have put out you plea for a compassionate look at what you feel you want and feel is necessary for the public to spend their money on to benefit you and yours. I on the other hand give you a peek at mine and ask for nothing but to understand that others have their cross to bare too. I wish that we both could change things but the fact is there is not enough money to go around and looks like the way government spends money there never will be.

    The Lack

  • Doc Says:

    John – “Obama: 4.013 Trillion (1/20/2009 – today)”
    That’s right, 8 years of Bush’s mess to clean up; how could I forget that?

  • Ken Says:

    I just love how “facts” get posted when the poster that posted them can’t read and understand them.

    But what does it matter anyway?

    As Michelle Bachman points out “god” is mad and has already started sending earthquakes and huricans to DC.

    Wonder what will happen when “god” gets to Hawaii?!?!?!

  • John Says:

    Doc, it’s just another fact that Obama has added almost as much to the national debt in two and a half years as Bush did in eight. Your figures were chosen to obscure that fact.
    Ken, anything but personal insults and regurgitated talking points to contribute?

  • Hilo35 Says:

    @Doc, Does this mean Obama has a free pass to spend as he wishes with the excuse being he did’t get us into this mess. It’s not like he hasn’t continued Bush’s wars or even expanded on them at all. It’s not like he missed with all his economic predictions and policies. He and his team have shown over and over they don’t know what the hell is going on. All they know how to do is print money.

    This isn’t about Obama or Bush, this is about Keynesian vs. Austrian Economics, and people are starting to figure out that the Austrians know whats going on.

  • Ken Says:

    @John

    Just replying to your talking points and intellectual insults, thats all.

  • Ken Says:

    On the substance of the matter, what you are discussing is the paying of the tab already spent.

    Your discussion centers on the equivalent of calling up VISA and bitching them out because there is a charge for $300.00 for the dress your wife bought.

    That cost you $300.00.

    But it feels good to blame VISA. As the alternative to the REAL blame is too ugly to have.

  • Hj Says:

    Bush might have bought the $300 dress that nobody wanted, but instead of returning it Obama bought 8 more dresses at the same price and still didn’t get one he liked.

  • tia Says:

    “Trying to talk with a liberal is like masturbation without any pay off, for the most part it is just a waist of time and it just makes me tired..”
    Then why do you engage in so much of it, Lack? That’s how arthritis of the dominant hand sets in. If only you had a smidgen of compassion for your fellow man as you do your wife….

  • Hilo35 Says:

    what we need is a sound currency first to solve our problems. A sound currency restrains government from fighting wars, and it restrains the welfare state.

    @ tia, you are blind if you think supporting taxes for welfare is not part of the problem that is causing more and more people to end up on welfare. Is that compassion that you support a program that causes more people to rely on it.

  • John Says:

    @Hj: wait, so Bush is the wife? The dress would then be the wars and the tax cuts that blasted up the deficit. And Obama is the second wife, I guess, since he’s continued the wars and the tax cuts, and also bought a huge new stimulus. Clearly, then, VISA represents China, but I’m still not that clear on how pointing out the facts about how much we’ve spent is like calling VISA (China) to complain about the bill.

  • Hilo35 Says:

    The “tax cuts” and wars blasted up the deficit. Where did you get that fact from .

    Clearly China is Visa. Wow what about the FED.

  • Hj Says:

    @John – Bush is the 1st Husband. Obama the 2nd Husband (cuckold).

    Wife = Lending Institutions, Home Buying Public, etc.

    The Dress would be the US with all its beauty and warts revealed. (i.e. wars, “economy”, etc.).

    The Stimulus is an action therefore representing “what” Bush and Obama both did. Obama just decided it was easier to keep buying new dress’. In all fairness Obama is following Keynesian dogma in that they believe they can buy there way out. Its not like he’s just making it up.

  • tia Says:

    Hilo35, where exactly did I say I support taxes or welfare?

  • Hilo35 Says:

    You said “If only you had a smidgen of compassion for your fellow man as you do your wife….”

    You were referring to the Lack’s post which ended with “The fact is liberals want more than I can give and they offer nothing in return for my bucks but slanderous accusations on how my money should be spent and it’s always on them.”

    Your rhetoric is the same as people who support the welfare system and therefore I take you support the welfare system and the taxes that go to paying for it.

  • tia Says:

    Wow, Hilo35, you pegged me liberal, tax and welfare supporter and whatever else from “If only you had a smidgen of compassion for your fellow man as you do your wife….”??? What else do you see in your crystal ball? Why is it that everyone who disagrees with you and Lack et al are ‘liberals who support the welfare system and taxes’? You happen to be wrong on all counts, but who am I to burst your delusional bubble?

  • hilo35 Says:

    The converstaion has basically been saying that there is a faction of people that don’t want tax money to go towards welfare programs like daycare at the courthouse. You are saying you disagree, so why wouldn’t I then conclude that you support welfare systems like this.

    If anything you need to be consistent. Were you or were you not saying he doesn’t have compassion for his fellow man because he doesn’t think his tax money is well spent in our current system. If so then it means that you beleive to have compassion for your fellow man you need to feel that the money is being well spent. Well if you feel it is being well spent then you must support the system.

    Doesn’t take a crystal ball, your words are pretty straight forward to read.

    Maybe the issue is me calling tax money to help people with childcare a welfare program.

  • hilo35 Says:

    Of course you could just come out and say what you really meant with your comment.

  • tia Says:

    What I meant was:
    “Trying to talk with a liberal is like masturbation without any pay off, for the most part it is just a waist of time and it just makes me tired..”
    Then why do you engage in so much of it, Lack? That’s how arthritis of the dominant hand sets in. If only you had a smidgen of compassion for your fellow man as you do your wife….” Anyone who frequently enjoys shitting on those who are down, then espouses how much he cares for his ailing wife, lacks compassion. Nope, said nothing about liberals, nothing about supporting taxes nor welfare. But go ahead, hilo35, and tell me what I’m saying according to your own delusions. Amazing how you can ASSume so much into a direct comment and still insist you’re right even though corrected by the commenter.

  • Hilo35 Says:

    How am I assuming anything when you straight out said you disagreed with our conversation. Maybe I am wrong but it didn’t seem at all that Tiff was looking for a pitty party or as you like to say compassion. She was wondering why money couldn’t have gone towards a special room for her and others to keep there children while they take care of business.

    So what does compassion have to do with any of this. Should he feel sorry for her, should he just agree with her to show compassion. Give me a break. She made a comment, we disagree with her.

    If you say I am wrong on all counts in saying you support welfare and taxes then why are you disagreeing with us.

  • tia Says:

    Ignorance and stupidity deserves no response.

  • Hilo35 Says:

    It can also be that when in a discussion all you can do and have been doing is trying to call the other names when he attacks your responses and you have nothing to back yours up.

    Just face it you have no answer. You have compassion for people who want welfare . You also say you don’t support welfare or taxes so you are confused and resort to name calling.

    You show your ignorance and stupidity by engaging in this conversation where you have no idea what the context is. In true fashion you started insulting people from beginning to end.

    I really hope you are still in high school because it would be really sad if you are a grown up and this is what comes out of your mind. You better study up for your SAT’s this year because looks like you need it.

Leave a Comment

Please note: Comment moderation is enabled and may delay your comment. There is no need to resubmit your comment.