• Alexander Silvert, the court-appointed attorney representing Roger Christie, who faces 14 federal charges related to growing, selling, and possessing marijuana, has asked to be dismissed from the case.
    “Due to various events between counsel and the defendant,
    counsel is of the opinion that there is a breakdown in the attorney-client relationship that is detrimentally effecting counsel’s ability to continue to represent Mr. Christie,” Silvert wrote. “After discussing counsel’s concerns with Mr. Christie, he agrees and seeks the appointment of new counsel.”

    Posted by Tiffany Edwards Hunt @ 9:36 am

51 Responses

WP_Blue_Mist
  • Vampire Says:

    Christie is a walking talking poster boy for proof that pot causes brain damage. That lawyer was appointed to defend Christie’s rights and Christie starts a fight with him?

    Neural pathway obfuscation, misdirection, and degradation. Christie is right where he belongs.

    I RECOMMEND as a condition of any future plea bargain, the authorities request Roger donate his damaged brain to scientific study upon his demise.

    Christie would make a great subject for a weekly cartoon sketch.

  • keoni Says:

    Public defenders don’t actually defend the public. They only give the appearance of defending the public. We are now guilty until proven innocent.

  • The Casual Observer Says:

    Considering that Roger was a relatively well-known figure in the national cannabis agenda, it’s a wonder that nobody has stepped forward to represent him pro bono. Pretty high profile eh? I think the reason nobody has come to his rescue is pretty simple — roger sold weed. Roger made money. Roger got caught, and now a whole bunch of his folks turning against him. If it was all about prayer and sacrament, he might have gotten away. The future doesn’t look good for him.

  • Nikolaus Says:

    I feel Roger is a political prisoner in a on going war on safe medicine. He did sell weed; the difference to me is that he wasn’t in it to make money; he was in it to help people get weed in a safe way and spent much of his time helping patients by making them self reliant in growing there own so they were not dependant on Roger….pro-bono. My good friend in Kona was able to get off her 6 pharma drugs with Rogers help and is a cancer survivor that gives much credit to our freedom fighter Roger Cristy. It’s disappionting to see a brother stick his head out and the rest of us let them cut it off.

  • Vampire Says:

    HIGH profile

  • marty Says:

    http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120321/Cannabinoid-drugs-can-directly-inhibit-HIV-in-late-stage-AIDS.aspx

    Weed causes brain damage!! What a dumbass.
    Our brain is full of cannabinoid receptors and our body produces its own “weed” anandamide. It’s like the thyroid system. Produce Too little doc prescribes extra. If your hypocannabinoid then your body doesn’t produce enough. You can’t forget painful memories, hence PRESS and anxiety disorders. If you produce too much your schizophrenic. Weed is the last thing you need. It’s like any other medicine. I met Roger a few years ago cause I thought he was onto something. He promoted religous use based on its use in preparation of original Hebrew anointing oil. Sula Benet (entymologist) translated early Hebrew texts and concluded this was the case (~1937). Before political corruption.
    When I met him I didn’t ask him for weed. He didn’t try to sell me any. We discussed religion and he gave me a bud on the way out the door. That doesn’t sound like the kind of drug dealer I remember back in school. Welcome to our modern society where it pays to be ignorant and make money running our mouths.

  • hugh clark Says:

    My gosh, a medical debate, mind reading and comments aboUt client-attorney events, none of which is attributed to anything but opinion. Sounds like chattering over the clothes line to me.

  • Rick Says:

    I agree with Hugh, with one exception: chattering over the clothes line makes more sense than the comments above (Hugh excluded, of course).

  • konagold3 Says:

    Aloha Hugh

    5 out of 14 have now plead [or are about to plea] guilty and are facing 5 to 40 years in prison with an agreement to knock the sentencing down a notch if they testify and cooperate in the trial

    that’s not backyard fence talking that is court records [two of the pleas scheduled for the 23rd I think]

    Christie and his wife have now both had more than one attorney withdraw setting back even further the trial date

    what the pdf of Christie’s wife’s attorney’s sworn affidavit [again not back fence chatting and which was published on this site] shows is that Christie is opting for Rev. Nancy Harris defense and Eddy Lepp’s defense and Christie BASED his ministry on my defense in my 1997 case in Kona for the religious possession of pot

    what all three pillars of Christie’s legal machinations and wishful thinking defense strategy have in common is that we, all three, were convicted [ I once told Judge Ibarra that he had given me a hell-of-a brag to be convicted of my convictions but then I only possessed pot as did Rev. Nancy]

    now what both Christie’s attorney and his wife’s attorney had in common, which got them off the case, is that they recognized Christie, having sold pot, did not have a religious defense for doing so

    Christie got caught being a glad hand grifter whose delusion of some sort of religious freedom to sell pot and whose offer to folks of “PROTECTION FROM PROSECUTION” for $250 paypaled to his web site which would get them a ‘magic’ scantuary kit, has run him and 13 others into the rocks of the judicial system

    many of Christie’s victims either have been or shortly will be jailed [NORML has published a list of those jailed in other states]

    pity

    but where is your journalistic integrity Hugh??

    or do you just want to carry Christie’s water which is a MORAL lapse on your part as two wrongs never make a right

    because you could read the court documents for yourself and know what is rather than making snippy comments about backyard chats

    you could either get or get access to a PACER account read the docs for your self and have an informed opinion rather than just an opinion

    hoping for your enlightenment

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  • Rick Says:

    Everything I have heard from reliable sources is consistent with what the Rev. Shields says above. There are many well-meaning but naive people who got caught up in all of this. Had Roger stopped selling or giving away marijuana after the first raid on his office
    it is very unlikely that they would be facing incarceration.

  • Russell Ruderman Says:

    Vampire…so righteous of you to kick someone when they’re down. I trust you’ll receive a similar level of compassion in your time of need. We could learn more from dissecting your brain to research the causes of intolerance and hatred, which cause more harm in human society than any mistakes Roger may have made.

  • The Casual Observer Says:

    Roger knew what da hell he was doing. He was even warned on several occasions not to do so. Hilo is a small town. Everybody talks. Roger was selling and got popped. Plain and simple. No political prisoner case here. Shields pretty much hits it on the head in describing Roger as delusional –thinking that his ministry somehow gave him a free pass to be a dealer….albeit a “sanctified” dealer. Crrrazy. That’s now how the game is played, and Roger is paying a steep price for it now.

  • konagold3 Says:

    a Shepard leads his flock of thirteen to graze grass on the railroad track

    he tells them not to worry his special staff of sanctuary and his magic words prove the locomotive has no right there

    off in the distance the whistle blows [the first raid]

    but the Shepard does not worry and tells the flock to keep on grazing

    closer the whistle blows again the train is almost upon them [ the second raid]

    still the Shepard urges his flock to eat up

    the third whistle was as the locomotive was hitting the Shepard and wiping out the flock

    but the Shepard’s friends blame the locomotive

    if one can

    then understand

  • damon Says:

    who are the one pleading guilty/ planning to plead…? i was working on the friendly aquaponics farm, (owned by tim mann and susanne friend) when the second and third raid happened on their farm… i left that place because i got tired of the 4am wake up calls from the DEA… while i was managing their farm they were only growing a few plants on the balcony of the bed room, they got popped for the big number before i even arrived… and since they stopped paying me to pay for a lawyer, i’ve been watching this thing pan out over the last amlmost two years now from a quarter of the world away with great interest… i figure if they refuse to pay me the money they owe me i’ll be happy with them going to prison for chasing me off of hawaii after i asked for my backed pay.

  • Co Day Says:

    Roger Christie is a good man. I made the anointing oil with him and it was truly an honor to see how much care he put into his study on preparation and sacred biblical herbs, not to mention his overall kind and very healing and nurturing demeanor. He is an intelligent guy and I know he is very steady in his conviction to what he believes is right. I personally agree with him, and I hope he is helped to build a garden where he can grow all of the many sacred herbs he requires for his practice.

  • damon Says:

    i would take great care in making anointed oil if it cost me over $200 a batch as well… i take the same amount of care when making cooking oils out of morels and truffles… i’d bet dollars to doughnuts if he was using sage (the legal green stuff) he’d show a bit less care… and his convictions are built on a faulty premiss… it would be like saying you backing up a person that believes a toaster is his holy savior… you simply cant just create a religion based on smoking pot just because a book written 1000 years ago says man has domain over plants. well… we do have domain over plants, and we chose to make some of them illegal for consumption.

  • Tiffany Edwards Hunt Says:

    Aloha,
    Your comment just made me think of an article I recently read:
    http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/435/side_effects_may_include

  • damon Says:

    thank you for that article tiffany. it makes sense, all the pot heads are creating reasons why they need to use marijuana, even crossing over into the religious realm. anxiety, appetite disorders, and painkillers are all reasons people are triumphing marijuana as the new super drug, but what people are failing to realize is that for anything that pot may help with, there’s already a medication for it that’ll do the job better. my biggest beef is all of the people that say pot isn’t addictive to combat the use of prescription pain killers… well you can talk to some of the people i know that make the sacrifice of eating decent meals just to afford a bag of pot…

    i can see it now… a new drug on the horizon, the magic pill that ails pain, calms the nerves, and causes you to eat all in one magic pipe… oh, but wait… i think America already has enough numb, lethargic, overweight people populating the states… so what really are they going for here?

    people are saying that regulating pot is bogging down the legal system.. well having lived in america all of my life i’ve been noticing how no one is wanting to accept the blame for their actions… so instead of blaming the legal system for having a law thats been around for nearly 100 years now, how about we blame the idiots that repeatedly break the law?

    it’s all a guise… it’s another war not meant to be won… as people are quickly finding out, just because it’s legalized by the state for medical use, the federal government is standing it’s ground on the substances illegality. make people feel safe so they will openly grow pot, then move in and arrest them for it by using a superseding agency… it’s a media hype that’s being manufactured to keep us blind to the real legal matters, like how our constitution is basically worthless thanks to the patriot… anyone else find it funny that all of the people up in michigan are being left off? you know, those guys that were forming an organized militia? it’s because having an organized militia to make sure the federal government is being fair to it’s people is protected under the second amendment. the only reason they were busted is the federal government manufactured personal threats to break the group p and incarcerate them…

    it’s sad really… all of these people are fighting so strongly for the ability to smoke a joint and aren’t even caring about the fact that our basic liberties and freedoms are being bastardized and stripped from us at lightning speed…. idiots… all of them..

  • Tiffany Edwards Hunt Says:

    …I think that is the intention… By the populace being medicated, both legally and illegally, it becomes easier to control… Indeed, there is a pill for everything and most of the pills have a dulling effect…

    If you look at the highly processed foods in the grocery stores that the FDA gives a pass, yoy can even argue that the American diet aids in the dumbing down.

    The true quest in this day and age is to keep your mind clear to remain a critical thinker.

  • konagold3 Says:

    Aloha Damon and Tiffany

    the article about the Pharmaceutical industry cooking the DSM IV text is old history

    facts :

    the US with ~5% of the worlds population holds ~25% of the worlds prisoners and consumes over ~53% of the worlds pain medications ;

    the land of the not so free, the barely brave, and the over-medicated

    last year ~15,000 died due to over the counter pain meds — aspirin Tylenol Advil — and around the same number died from illegal drugs

    cannabis on the other hand kills no one it is IMPOSSIBLE to die from a cannabis overdose

    Damon is just flat wrong about cannabis advocates making up religious reasons to use pot

    the religious use of pot crosses into many religious belief systems in 1898- 1899 the India Hemp Commission reviewed many religious references to the religious use of Cannabis

    “At the turn of the twentieth century, the Indian
    Cannabis Drugs Commission, set up to study the use of Cannabis in India
    contains the following:

    “…It is inevitable that temperaments would be found
    to whom the quickening spirit of bhang is the spirit freedom and
    knowledge. In the ecstasy of bhang the spark of the Eternal in
    man turns into light the murkiness of matter.”

    “…Bhang is the Joy-giver, the Sky-flyer, the Heavenly-Guide,
    the Poor Man’s Heaven, the Soother of Grief…No god or man is
    as good as the religious drinker of bhang…The supporting power
    of bhang has brought many a Hindu family safe through the miseries
    of famine. To forbid or even seriously to restrict the use of
    so gracious an herb as the hemp would cause widespread suffering
    and annoyance and to large bands of worshipped ascetics, deep-seated
    anger. It would rob the people of a solace in discomfort, of a
    cure in sickness, of a guardian whose gracious protection saves
    them from the attacks of evil influences, and whose mighty power
    makes the devotee of the Victorious, overcoming the demons of
    hunger and thirst, of panic, fear, of the glamour of Maya or matter,
    and of madness, able in rest to brood on the Eternal, till the
    Eternal, possessing him body and soul, frees him from the haunting
    of self and receives him into the Ocean of Being. These beliefs
    the Musalman devotee shares to the full. Like his Hindu brother
    the Musalman fakir reveres bhang as the lengthener of life, the
    freer from the bonds of self. Bhang brings union with the Divine
    Spirit. `We drank bhang and the mystery I am He grew plain'”.” [Bhang is a beverage made of pot milk and honey]

    more on the Holy Herb at http://www.hialoha.com/konagold/church/holyherb.html

    [published on the web in 1994]

    as to medicinal peer review articles to any one who wishes I will e-mail a copy of the 600+ page pdf of “Granny Storm Crow’s” list of peer reviewed studies of tens of thousands of studies and article regarding the medicinal efficacy of Cannabis and Cannabinoids [konagold3@sinocomenergy.com]

    for Damon to allege that the facts about pot are made up regarding the positive benefits is nothing but hubris and rhetoric

    as to fighting the usurpation of the constitution many Cannabis advocates myself included have been exposing this for decades on the front lines

    I stood trial for my religious use of Cannabis in Kona in 1997 and I am proud to stand convicted of my convictions

    here is a more modern version of the famous “Niemöller Poem.” which I have shared for at least 15 years

    “When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I don’t deal drugs.
    When they took the forth amendment, I was quiet because I’m innocent.
    When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I don’t own a gun.
    Now they’ve taken the first amendment and I can’t say anything at all.”

    pot advocates are much more aware of the dismantling of the Constitution and the Bill of rights than Damon even knows and have been on the front lines fighting to assert Constitutional Rights and Powers of the individual for decades in the nations longest war — the War on SOME Drugs

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  • konagold3 Says:

    correction :

    “When they took the forth amendment, I was quiet because I’m innocent.”

    should read fifth amendment

  • damon polta Says:

    Ok. Lets say hypothetically they legalize pot for use in the medical industry where only drug manufacturing companies have the right to grow pot, then what? All of the people claiming the medial benefits win their argument and the personal use of smoking pot is still illegal. Would you still fight so strongly for your plant then?

    And taking things for hundreds if nit thousands of years ago is taking things out of their original context. To use pot now under the lass and guidelines that existed back in the time when that text was written would mean all laws based on holy books would have to be followed as well under a system of fair checks and balances… this means killing non-virgins for trying to marry and being allowed to beat women if they step out of line. The texts are archaic, just as the laws that governed that time in history. So your argument is invalid. And the bible cannot govern laws, if it did women would still be legally sold form marriage dowers and people would still own slaves.

  • konagold3 Says:

    Aloha Damon

    you’ve made not one but two strawman arguments

    religious freedoms deriving from ancient religious practices is the genesis of all our freedoms

    for if the pilgrims and Calvinist had not fled Europe in pursuit of individual freedom all of the other rights would not have evolved as the cornerstone of our Constitution and Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence affirms it is our Creator who endows us with the rights of life liberty and the attainment of happiness a essentially religious point at the core of our republic

    so attributing religious freedom to beating women is just delusional and the wild illogical leap that because religious practices date to antiquity that they have no place in modern society because we would then be obliged to kill non virgins is just a silly argument of no merit

    as to claiming its legality for medicine which is pharmaceutical such is already taking place Marinol is and has been a legal schedule three drug for 15 or 20 years now

    however just THC or CBD isolated and alone is not the full spectrum of beneficial cannabinoids found in the natural plant

    so yes the ‘plant’ is worth fighting for even though a pharmaceutical derivative is legalized

    you make a faulty assumption that it is a plant for which the fight is waged

    it is for FREEDOM the war is fought

  • damon Says:

    no, my statements of antiquities laws not having place here are valid, no matter how extreme. to allow the validity of one such law but not the other just just as oppressive as not allowing any of them… and as for thomas jefferson saying anything religious is very suspect, consider his many vocal and written statements about how religion has no place in law. he even wrote a sort of bible without a god in it…

    the majority, not all, but the majority of people are fighting for the use of the whole plant without restrictions. mainly people want to smoke it, and to argue against that point is just naive.

    and to bring up the amount of people in incarceration because of marijuana is a faulty argument. people keep blaming the laws for the overpopulation of the prison system, but now one is blaming the law breakers. it’s like saying if we had enough people incarcerated for beating their spouses people would rally behind legalizing it. while we’re at it lets get ride of traffic tickets, there’s plenty of people getting those, and by the logic of the pot head masses since the cops are wasting all of their time writing tickets for running red lights we should do away with red lights so the cops and focus on finding missing children and breaking up bar fights.

    just because everyone is jumping off of the same bridge, that doesn’t mean it should be legalized. would we be fighting over legalizing rape if the prison system was filled because of the rapists? yes, it’s extreme logic, but logic none-the-less.

    i saw we follow the lead of the african nations… more extreme punishments for the offenders of a controlled substance… people would be less likely to break a law if the punishment was more than a 90 day stay in a brick room.

    hell, if we legalize marijuana on the basis that the busted offenders are over crowding the prison system what kind of example would that make for other crimes? if enough people get DUI’s and start to over crowd the prison system would we legalize driving drunk?

    and as you religious types so often like to forget, the very same god that gave us the rights over all plants and animals regularly committed mass genocide as asked for ritual sacrifices… so it really doesn’t make sense to live in a world governed by laws created by a person such as that…

    oh, and our protection to our religious freedoms are granted to sanctioned religions, and last time i checked, smoking pot as sacrament isn’t part of any sanctioned religion… good luck trying to get the pope or any other religious big wig on your side for that one.

    based on your statements you’d be all for my idea to use pot for medical purposes if in fact you can create something from it that doesn’t already exist in a better controlled for, but for the personal use for the every day person would remain illegal… hmm… sounds like our current system… so if they’re using pot in the medical field already for any purpose not already covered by other medications… then what really is the argument? oh, thats, right, people want to smoke it, which holds far less benefits… it eases pain… there’s a medication for that… if increases appetite… there’s a medication for that too. now the draw backs… it’s causes lethargy. that means that person now has to take a second medication to get them motivated. it hampers motor functions and impedes speech patterns and slows critical thought processes… that means now a person is taking 4 medications to just counteract the smoking of pot to ail one symptom that could have been better treated by using an existing legal drug… pros and cons arent balancing out here…

    having smoked pot in my younger years i know what it does to the human body, and really as a whole smokable plant serves no purpose that cant be better controlled by something else with viable measurable dosages of medication…

    i just dont see the day coming where people with back pain will be prescribed a joint over a medication that can be quantitatively and indefinitely measured to insure effectiveness.

    and if all you’re fighting for is the used of the pot by products then who better to do so than the major pharmaceutical companies? oh, wait, as you’ve just told us… they’re already doing this… so again i ask, if this isnt just for the right to smoke pot, then what is it for? because it seems to me most of the demands are either being met, or are illogical.

  • Ken Says:

    @damon

    I have to agree with most of your points. Except the 9th paragraph which portrays you as not really knowing anything about marijuana.

    First of all, I am strongly against the claim of “religion” for justification of legal use. But then again, I am against ANYTHING “religion” for numerous reasons. In fact, if “all things religion” were eliminated, I think this entire world could come to real meaningful tangible peaceful co-existence.

    Now, that being said, and in as much as there is undeniable proof that marijuana does have medicinal value, I too, think that is a flimsy excuse to justify its legal use. In fact, a new form of “anti pot legalization” that has cropped up in California lately is the entire medical marijuana dispensary OWNERS – who now apparently enjoy making the millions drug dealers used to make.

    Now, that too being said, how about we look at it in this way – and that would be to legalize marijuana, tax it, regulate it and control it just like alcohol, tobacco and firearms are today.

    RJ Reynolds grows it, packages it and distributes it. The government taxes it and regulates it.

    The consumer is free to make his/her own choice of using it. Just as if he/she wants to smoke a cigarette, drink a beer or shoot a gun.

    Tax proceeds go to the exact same place the taxes on cigarettes, beer, whisky, guns and bullets go.

    Now, if we can’t look at marijuana in this light, then why not look at the elimination of alcohol, tobacco and firearms?

    Today we see what our great grandparents saw 100 years ago with prohibition. Al Capone has been replaced by Mexican Drug Cartels. Medicinal booze has been replaced by medicinal marijuana. And of course, you could always get that belt of sacramental wine from the good pastor!

    You know, the only guy who got really pissed when prohibition was over turned was a “G-Man” named Elliot Ness. Ironically, he was also a DRUNK! This is the same hypocrisy this argument gets day in and day out!

  • damon Says:

    lol ken, i see your point. but as it stands today they’re already pushing for a smoke free cali. targeted at cigarettes… so if it’s put into that lot, it’ll be a short lived victory if the smoke free cali. movement takes hold… the only problem i have with your statement is the 2nd amendment protects the right to own firearms. now i know that doesn’t cover cigarettes and alcohol… but it’d be funny to see a government agency called the A -newly departed from the-TF. lol.

    a problem i can see with legalizing it and running through the fed. for tax purposes is the current problem the fed is having with the mooonshiners… that problem has even warranted it’s own tv show. if it’s legalized in that manner you’ll have people growing it themselves making buying it obsolete. also with legalization a new form of intoxication detection wouldnt need to be developed… now i’ve seen people smoke themselves stupid, and it’s those people i wouldnt want behind the wheel of a car, the same as drunks… the simple fact that you would need a blood test to indicate the amount of THC running rampant in a persons system makes this problematic, because you need a warrant to take bodily fluids, making field tests impossible… and if field tests are impossible to make, the human body could process out the active drug in the system before testing back at the station, the same as the BAC level drops if you refuse to blow in the box standing at road side… there’s too much red tape to cross, not to mention actually inventing the field test… im envisioning something like a diabetic testing system, but still taking bodily fluids cant be done readily… and allowing the cops to use probable cause to circumvent needing a warrent for a blood sample or urine sample is just arming them with yet another way to invade peoples rights… so even if the pot smokers win, we all lose. yes, they could refuse the test just as in a DUI check and lose their license, but lets be real here, how many drunks does that actually keep off the roads?

    i don’t want you all to think that im just some old bitty trying to ruin the fun for the kids… im 25. i should be at prime pot smoking age with a fine enough job to support the habit… but instead im choosing to hold a job not having to fear a random urine test, im choosing to not want zoned out people behind the wheel. (and no case has been proven that a person that has smoked pot before driving has caused an accident, but again i prove to proper toxicity level testing not being available to prove indefinitely… its a damn loop hole the hippies are using to keep their noses clean) im also choosing to not allow people to use religious argument as the rule of law… because if we legalize one plant based on bible law we have to legalize all of them, which means opium, heroin, and cocaine are now under the legalization gun because they are all plant derived… hell, opium is just as easy to manufacture as pot, and you don’t even have to kill the whole plant to harvest it, so you could count that one in for sure because there is little to no difference between the two PLANTS when talking about religious rights to use and abuse them. it’s a system of checks and balances… you cant have one thing legalized under one precedence and negate others… it’s an all or nothing ordeal… that’s why all mind altering drugs are illegal, man made and naturally grown.

  • Ken Says:

    @damon

    Your words do not speak of a 25 year old!

    One missing point in your entire argument is that the biggest mind altering drug is already legal.

    And that drug directly causes 10 to 13 thousand human deaths in America a year solely by drunk drivers alone.

    Furthermore, I could care less if you want to smoke your brains into Jell-O – or for that matter, drink yourself into oblivion, the point I am making is the sheer waste of tax dollars being spent enforcing something unenforceable with respect to marijuana. It also has shown that right here in Hawaii we have direct conclusive evidence that links Green Harvest directly to cause of the ICE epidemic this Island and State now has.

    Now, if your desire is to regulate human health, there are hundreds of things already legal that should not be – from a pure human health/safety standpoint. One has to admit that to argue against marijuana legalization on a human health matter when we have three of the biggest causes of human death already legal AND regulated by a government funded department of the same names of the three items is kind of ridiculous.

    Your argument of not being able to make one thing legal while others of the same thing are already legal is interesting in and of itself. If one wants to legalize what’s in the bible, well, before marijuana, we would have to legalize human sacrifice, rape, slavery, murder, human mutilation and a few other really good human virtues first!

    In the end, I think it is time we look at marijuana objectively and in the reality of what it is to most people – which is the same to other people as having a few beers or a few glasses of wine.

  • konagold3 Says:

    Aloha Damon

    Damon : “no, my statements of antiquities laws not having place here are valid, no matter how extreme. to allow the validity of one such law but not the other just just as oppressive as not allowing any of them… and as for thomas jefferson saying anything religious is very suspect, consider his many vocal and written statements about how religion has no place in law. he even wrote a sort of bible without a god in it…”

    your assumption that ancient laws regarding sacraments are codified is naive

    however, if Catholics are allowed communion including wine during alcohol prohibition then Rastafarians [who ARE recognized by the Ninth Circuit court in the decision Guam V. Guerrero as legitimately using cannabis as a legal sacrament] are due the same

    your suspicion of Jefferson as not having religious belief is simply uninformed :

    “Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America.
    —Thomas Jefferson, November 29, 1775″

    Jefferson did write the Declaration of Independence and it does acknowledge in its opening words that “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights , that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    Damon : “the majority, not all, but the majority of people are fighting for the use of the whole plant without restrictions. mainly people want to smoke it, and to argue against that point is just naive.”

    most efforts to legalize cannabis are for it to be taxed and regulated treated just as alcohol and tobacco both of which ARE restricted

    Damon : ” and to bring up the amount of people in incarceration because of marijuana is a faulty argument. people keep blaming the laws for the overpopulation of the prison system, but now one is blaming the law breakers. it’s like saying if we had enough people incarcerated for beating their spouses people would rally behind legalizing it. while we’re at it lets get ride of traffic tickets, there’s plenty of people getting those, and by the logic of the pot head masses since the cops are wasting all of their time writing tickets for running red lights we should do away with red lights so the cops and focus on finding missing children and breaking up bar fights.”

    again a strawman argument which blames the victims of UNCONSTITUTIONAL law and suggest the remedy to give up OUR inalienable rights to an unjust OUT OF CONTROL government

    in this case it is the law itself which causes the crime and not an individuals actions which are criminal or victimize other folks

    if pot were harmful [which there is ample evidence that it is, if compared to alcohol and tobacco, RELATIVELY harmless] the only victim is oneself

    a quote which has often been mistakenly attributed to Lincoln is that ‘Prohibition makes crimes out of things which are NOT CRIMES’ a true statement even if not from Lincoln

    the fault in your argument is that it over looks this simple fact

    the law which binds too strictly breaks itself

    for instance if the law required everyone to only breath every other day obviously everyone not suicidal would be, as you put it, a “law breaker”

    we were not born to be SERVANTS of either the Government or the LAW rather governments and laws were created to serve US

    the war on some drugs violates 7 of the first 14 amendments to the constitution

    lets just focus on one

    the 14th amendment requires that we receive due process of law and equal protection under the law

    to prohibit alcohol required an amendment to the constitution which was called the Volstead Act and passed by Congress and 3/4 of the state legislatures this set the legal precedent to prohibit any recreational/spiritual substance

    no amendment has EVER been passed to prohibit cannabis, a naturally occurring plant given by God to all folks, a ‘natural right’ of mankind

    thus because no amendment was ever attempted due process has not been followed and thus this law is unconstitutional

    Damon : ” just because everyone is jumping off of the same bridge, that doesn’t mean it should be legalized. would we be fighting over legalizing rape if the prison system was filled because of the rapists? yes, it’s extreme logic, but logic none-the-less.”

    a nonsensical statement in light of reality

    Damon : ” i saw we follow the lead of the african nations… more extreme punishments for the offenders of a controlled substance… people would be less likely to break a law if the punishment was more than a 90 day stay in a brick room.”

    well, by that logic, while we are at it why don’t we just march some Jews off to some ovens — we all know how problematic they are??

    Damon : ” hell, if we legalize marijuana on the basis that the busted offenders are over crowding the prison system what kind of example would that make for other crimes? if enough people get DUI’s and start to over crowd the prison system would we legalize driving drunk?”

    are you writing drunk or have you no sense of liberty??

    are you a mind slave to government??

    Damon : ” and as you religious types so often like to forget, the very same god that gave us the rights over all plants and animals regularly committed mass genocide as asked for ritual sacrifices… so it really doesn’t make sense to live in a world governed by laws created by a person such as that…”

    wrong

    MEN have not only regularly committed such acts , but they have also regularly blamed either God, or the Devil, for their own evil act and iniquity and hypocrisy ; GOD forbids such acts and in contrast to what you write, only asks that we love each other and that we love him

    Damon : ” oh, and our protection to our religious freedoms are granted to sanctioned religions, and last time i checked, smoking pot as sacrament isn’t part of any sanctioned religion… good luck trying to get the pope or any other religious big wig on your side for that one.”

    WRONG

    as noted above the NINTH CIRCUIT COURT recognizes Rastafarian use of cannabis as legal

    the US Supreme Court recognizes both Peyote and Ayahuasca as sacramental drugs used religiously

    [Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficente Uniao do Vegetal, was heard by the U.S. Supreme Court on November 1, 2005; the decision, released February 21, 2006, allows the UDV [church] to use the tea in its ceremonies pursuant to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. ]

    the Native American Church is currently suing and been allowed by appeal court to continue to assert in its suit that cannabis is, like Peyote is already, a protected and legal sacrament

    your assumption is mistaken AGAIN

    Damon : ” based on your statements you’d be all for my idea to use pot for medical purposes”

    you will ALWAYS be mistaken to assume you know what I think or am for ; keep your words and thoughts as your own

    Damon : ” if in fact you can create something from it that doesn’t already exist in a better controlled for, but for the personal use for the every day person would remain illegal… hmm… sounds like our current system… so if they’re using pot in the medical field already for any purpose not already covered by other medications… then what really is the argument? oh, thats, right, people want to smoke it, which holds far less benefits… it eases pain… there’s a medication for that… if increases appetite… there’s a medication for that too. now the draw backs… it’s causes lethargy. that means that person now has to take a second medication to get them motivated. it hampers motor functions and impedes speech patterns and slows critical thought processes… that means now a person is taking 4 medications to just counteract the smoking of pot to ail one symptom that could have been better treated by using an existing legal drug… pros and cons arent balancing out here…”

    you really are assumptive aren’t you

    the DEA’s own Head Administrative Judge declared it is the “safest therapeutic substance known to man”

    it is far superior to deadly , and increasingly addictive , Pharmaceuticals , which is why pot remains illegal and not because of the superiority of man made drugs ; rather it is because those drugs would fail to compete and lose profit share

    as to lethargy here is a list of cannabis using super achievers who have accomplished more in life than I will and for sure you will never even come close

    admitted pot smokers—current or former—who not only haven’t ended up as heroin junkies or burnouts, but have gone on to lead successful lives :

    George Washington in his Mount Vernon farming diary’s or journals said “make the most of the INDIA HEMP seed , sow it EVERYWHERE” [India Hemp is Cannabis Indica the strongest variety in amount of THC] in other places remarking how superior it was to common hemp

    Thomas Jefferson

    Carl Sagan,

    Victor Hugo,

    Alexander Dumas,

    Moses [Ex 30:23 calls for 8 pounds of KanehBos -Cannabis -in the Holy Anointing Oil of Israel the word messiah means the ‘anointed’]

    Barack Obama, president

    Bill Clinton, 42nd president of the U.S.

    John Kerry, U.S. Senator and 2004 Democratic nominee for president.

    Sarah Palin, governor of Alaska, 2008 Republican nominee for vice president.

    British Home Secretary Jacqui Smith,

    Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly,

    Chancellor Alistair Darling.

    Josh Howard, NBA all-star.

    New York Governor David Paterson.

    Former Vice President, Nobel Peace Prize winner, and Oscar winner Al Gore.

    Former Sen. Bill Bradley, who smoked while playing professional basketball.

    Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas,

    former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich,

    former New York Governor George Pataki.

    Billionaire and New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

    Sir Richard Branson,

    Aaron Sorkin,

    Michael Phelps,

    Ted Turner,

    Sir Paul McCartney,

    Lionel Hampton

    Louis Armstrong

    Steve Jobs [also took LSD]

    Montel Williams

    Stephen King

    Arnold Schwarzenegger
    Stephen Jay Gould
    Francis Crick discoverer of DNA
    Margaret Mead
    Andrew Weil
    Kary Mullis
    Oliver Sacks
    Richard Feynman
    Sergey Brin
    further in alphabetical order
    • Abbie Hoffman
    • Abraham Lincoln. On a Hohner box cover but disputed.
    • Al Gore.
    • Aldous Huxley
    • Aleister Crowley
    • Alexander Dumas
    • Alice B. Toklas
    • Allen Ginsberg. Poet.
    • Alexis Korner. Musician.
    • Andy Warhol. Artist.
    • Annita Roddock. Founder ‘The Body Shop’.
    • Anjelica Huston. Hollywood actress. Jack Nicholson’s girlfriend for 17 years. Pro-drug statements by her in Peter McWilliams book, ‘Ain’t Nobody’s Business if You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country’.
    • Arthur Conan Doyle. Author, creator ‘Sherlock Holmes’.
    • Aswad. Musicians.
    • Beatles.
    • Bill Clinton.
    • Bill Gates. Not confirmed, just very strongly hinted at in the Playboy interview
    • Bill Murray Arrested for possession
    • Bob Denver.
    • Bob Dylan. Poet, singer, song writer.
    • Bob Marley. Poet, singer, song writer.
    • The Bishop of Monmouth.
    • Brian Eno. Singer, song writer. Signed ‘Independent’ list.
    • Boy George.
    • British Lords & MP’s – too many to list .
    • Buddy Rich.
    • Cab Calloway. Jazz musician.
    • Carl Sagan. Author.
    • Caroline Coon. Artist, founder ‘Release’, manager of the Clash.
    • Carl Segan . Author.
    • Carlos Santana. Musician, guitarist.
    • Carrie Fischer.
    • Cary Grant.
    • Cary Mullis. Nobel Laurate, Biology
    • Charles Beaudelaire
    • Charles Dickens. Claims but no evdience.
    • Cheech Marin.
    • Chris Armstrong. Footballer, tested positive.
    • Chris Conrad.
    • Chris Farley. 60’s singer.
    • Chris Rock.
    • Conan O’Brian.
    • Count Basie. Jazz legend.
    • Dame Ruth Runsiman. Author; Police Federation Report (March 2000) advising liberlization.
    • Dave Gilmour . Musician ; Pink Floyd.
    • Dave ‘Tinki Winky’ Thompson – TV personality (UK); the Tellie Tubbie that was sacked.
    • Diego Rivera.
    • Dion Fortune.
    • Dioscorides.
    • Dizzy Gillespie.
    • Douglas Adams. Author.
    • Dr Francis Crick. Nobel Prize winner.
    • Dr Lester Grinspoon.
    • Dr Mark Porter. TV doctor who says cannabis is not more harmful than alcohol.
    • Dr Anne Biezanek (authoress)
    • Dr R.D.Laing.
    • Dr John Marks
    • Dr W.B. O’Shaugnessy.
    • Drew Barrymore.
    • Duke Ellington.
    • Eddie Ellison. Ex head of Scotland Yard Drug Squad.
    • Edgar Allen Poe. Author, multi-drug user.
    • Elvis Presley. Singer, FBI informer.
    • Emperor Liu Chi-nu.
    • Emperor Shen-Nung.
    • Ernest Hemmingway. Author.
    • Errol Flynn.
    • Fela Kuti. Musician. Afro/jazz king.
    • Felix Dennis. Publisher.
    • Fitz Hugh Ludlow.
    • Fran Healey. Musician; Travis.
    • Francis Ford Coppella.
    • Francis Rabelais.
    • Francis Wilkinson. Ex Chief Constable of Gwent Police.
    • Fredreich Nietzshe.
    • Ganesh – Hindu God.
    • Gary Johnson.
    • Gene Krupa.
    • George Clinton. Ex President’s brother.
    • George W Bush. Possibly the greatest living hypocrite.
    • George Gurdjieff.
    • George Melly. Jazz musician (early sponsor of Legalise Cannabis Campaign, Uk).
    • George Michael. Singer.
    • George Washington.
    • George Soros.
    • Gerard de Nerval.
    • Gilberto Gil. Brazilian musical icon.
    • The Greatful Dead.
    • Hasan I-Sabah.
    • Heinrich Khunrath.
    • Helen Petrova Blavatsky.
    • Henri Michaux.
    • Herman Hesse.
    • Hiero the Second.
    • Howard Marks. Author, cannabis smuggller.
    • Howard Stern, Admitted it on the radio.
    • Hua T’o.
    • Hunter S. Thompson. Smoked weed and snorted coke with George Bush.
    • Ian Botham. Convicted Cricket legend.
    • Irvine Welsh.
    • Kurt Cobain.
    • Jabir Ibn el-Hayyan.
    • Jack Herer. Author ‘The Emporor Wears No Cloths’
    • Jack Kerouac. Author ‘ On the Road’.
    • Jack Nicholson. Film actor.
    • Jackie Gleason.
    • Jackson Pollock.
    • Jane Fonda. Actress.
    • James Brown. Singer, song writer.
    • Janis Joplin. Singer, song writer.
    • Jesse 0Ventura.
    • Jerry Lee Lewis. Musician, song writer.
    • Jimmy Dorsey.
    • Jimmy Hendrix. Rock guitarist, singe, song writer
    • Jim Morrison. Musician, songwriter; The Doors.
    • Joan of Arc. Accused of using ‘witch herbs’ (another name for cannabis).
    • Joan Rivers.
    • Joe Strummer. Musician, singer, songer writer; The Clash.
    • John Belushi.
    • John Denver.
    • John F Kennedy. Popular US president (assassinated).
    • John Keats. Poet.
    • John Lennon. Musician, song writer; The Beatles.
    • John Le Mesurier. Tried it but said it’s not for him.
    • Johnny Cash.
    • John Peel. DJ, BBC broadcaster.
    • John Sinclair.
    • Judge John L. Kane. Chief Judge from the US District Court
    • Julie Christie. Actress.
    • Jules Verne.
    • John Wayne. ‘I tried it once but it didn’t do anything to me.’
    • Kelsey Grammar.
    • Ken Livingston. Mayor of London – supports decriminalisation but does not smoke or support the use of recreational drugs.
    • Kirk Douglas. Actor.
    • Kurt Cobain.
    • Larry Adler. Harmonica player and
    friend of George Gershwin. May have written a song about it.
    • Lenny Bruce. Comedian.
    • Lewis Carroll. Author ‘Alice in Wonderland’.
    • Linda St Clair
    • Little Richard. Musician.
    • Lord Avebury.
    • Lord Byron. Poet.
    • Lord Deedes.
    • Lord Tony Gifford. QC, civil rights lawyer.
    • Louis Armstrong. ‘Oh what a wonderful world’.
    • Louis Hebert.
    • Mark Thomas . Comedian.
    • Marlon Brando. Actor.
    • Martin Sheen.
    • Mary Shelly. Author ‘Frankinstein’.
    • Mary Tyler Moore.
    • Mick Jagger. Singer, song writer, The Rolling Stones.
    • Michael Mansfield QC. Lawyer.
    • Jade Jagger.
    • JC 100. Fastest rapper in the west.
    • JT Moore. Legendary white rasta guitarist.
    • Mike Tyson.
    • Miles Davis. Jazz/rock drummer.
    • Mo Mowlan. Genuine honest politician.
    • Modigliani. Sculptor.
    • Montgomery Clift. Mentioned in his biography.
    • Neil Diamond.
    • Nick Hornby. Author.
    • Niel Young. Musician.
    • Norman Mailer. Author.
    • Oasis. Rock band.
    • Oliver Stone.
    • Oscar Wilde. Poet.
    • Pablo Picasso. Artist.
    • Pancho Villa. Mexican bandit revolutionary.
    • Paul Flynn. Uk Member of Parliament.
    • Paul McCartney. Musician, song writer; The Beatles.
    • Paul Simon. Musician, song writer.
    • Pharoahs of Egypt. Traces in body samples.
    • Phil Donohue.
    • Phil Tufnell. Former test cricketer, now media celeb.
    • Peter Fonda. Actor; ‘Easy Rider’.
    • Peter Sellers. Actor, comedian.
    • Peter Tosh. Musician.
    • Philip K. Dick. Science fiction author.
    • Pierre Burton.
    • Pierre Elliot Trudeau.
    • Pink Floyd; Syd Barret and Roger Waters.
    • Prince Charles. Heir to the Throne. Quoted while visiting a hospital; ‘I understand cannabis is good for medical use’ .
    • Prince William.
    • Prince Harry.
    • Pythagoras.
    • Queen Arnegunde.
    • Queen Victoria. Used it for medical purposes.
    • Ram Dass.
    • Ray Charles. Musician.
    • Rev Kenneth Leech.
    • Richard Branson. ‘Virgin’. Entreprenur.
    • Richard Feynman, Nobel Prize Laureate physicist, founder of quantum electrodynamics.
    • Richard Prior.
    • Richard Wilson. Actor; ‘One Foot in the Grave’.
    • Rimbaud. Author.
    • Robert Burns. Mentioned it in a poem.
    • Robert ‘King’ Carter. Grower.
    • Robert Anton Wilson. Author.
    • Robert Mitchum. Jailed 90 days for possession of marijuana, 1949.
    • Roger McGough. 60’s liverpool poet.
    • Rolling Stones. Rock band.
    • Ronnie Scot. Jazz club owner, musician, busted on stage 1958, at his club in Soho, London.
    • S Club 7. ‘Super clean’ pop band, busted in Soho, very embarrassing.
    • Salvador Dali. Artist.
    • Samuel Beckett.
    • Samuel Taylor Coleridge. Poet.
    • Shen Nung. One of the fathers of Chinese medicine. 2700 B.C .
    • Sinead O’Connor. Singer.
    • Sidi-Hidi.
    • Sigmun Freud. Shrink.
    • Sonny Bono.
    • Super Furry Animals. Welsh band who wrote a song about Howard Marks.
    • Stephen King.
    • Sting/Gordon Sumners.
    • Tariq Ali. Activist Writer.
    • Tenessee Williams. Author.
    • Terence McKenna. Author.
    • Terry Gilliam. Actor, comedian;Monty Python.
    • The Who. Rock band.
    • Thelonius Monk.
    • Thomas Jefferson.
    • Timothy Leary.
    • Tom Lehrer.
    • Top Tories. Senior members of the shadow cabinet.
    • Tony Elliot. Publisher, ‘Time Out.
    • Tracy Blevins. Artist.
    • Tuppy Gore.
    • UB40. Band.
    • Victor Hugo.
    • Vincent Van Gogh. Artist.
    • Walt Disney. Cartoonist.
    • Walter Benjamin.
    • Whitney Houstonn. Busted at Hawaii airport but ran away.
    • William Burroughs. Author, poet, artist.
    • Will Self. Author. Did smack on Blairs plane.
    • William Shakespeare. Playwright.
    • William Straw. UK Home Sec Jack Straw’s son. Cautioned for supplying undercover journalists in pub ‘shocker’.
    • Willie Nelson.
    • Winston Churchill. British Prime Minister, poet, artist & multi drug user.
    • Woody Harrelson. Actor. Features in a book on growing medical marijuana .
    • Zoroaster. Persian prophet.

    so much for the bogus “lethargy”argument

    Damon : ” having smoked pot in my younger years i know what it does to the human body, and really as a whole smokable plant serves no purpose that cant be better controlled by something else with viable measurable dosages of medication…

    a false assumption

    man does not always make things better or do you enjoy ‘pink slime’ in your hamburger??

    Damon : ” i just dont see the day coming where people with back pain will be prescribed a joint over a medication that can be quantitatively and indefinitely measured to insure effectiveness.”

    that day came in 1996 when VOTERS in California passed prop 215 and in June of 2000 in Hawaii the day I was invited into the Governors office and witnessed his signing of Hawaii’s Med Pot law

    the synthetic is not a full spectrum of beneficial cannabinoids

    it is LESS effective because it takes 45 minutes to feel its effects

    often is an inappropriate delivery of an anti-nausea drug for it to be delivered orally

    further its effects are uncontrolled either too weak or way too strong where vaporized pot is rapidly effective and is patient controlled in effect as the patient titrated its usage, in other words self limits the dose for the greatest benefit [the ‘Goldilocks point — not to little not too much] but the oral synthetic can not controlled this way either too weak and too late or way too strong

    Damon : ” and if all you’re fighting for is the used of the pot by products then who better to do so than the major pharmaceutical companies? oh, wait, as you’ve just told us… they’re already doing this… so again i ask, if this isnt just for the right to smoke pot, then what is it for? because it seems to me most of the demands are either being met, or are illogical.”

    your logic is in need of an upgrade into the 21st Century as freedom is not being met nor is the Governments obligation to protect me and you from excessive government intrusions into our lives

    remember

    that government is best which governs LEAST and CO-ORDINATES most

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  • damon Says:

    now you see, my favorite part is how you claim first our right to pot is a god given right, then when i mention gods genocides, mainly im thinking of sodom and gamora, you then claim it was mans faults causing gods genocides? sound slike you’re picking and choosing what parts of the bible you’re wanting to follow…

    secondly, i mentioned making current illegalities legal based on imprisonment rates and you some how equate that to gassing jews? sounds a bit anti-Semitic on your part jumping to that conclusion… not only did your retort not make any sense… it’s quite disturbing as to how you jumped right back to genocide…

    when i look into the culture of pot smokers i see many bright colors, hear strange music, and see people trusting in love rather than law… and incase you missed the point im talking about hippies. yes, yo named near 100 people in history that against the odds were productive while smoking pot… but in he time frame of all of those people billions lived and died… going by the law of statistics you could find the same number of people with high functioning autism doing the same amount of miraculous achievements… im pretty sure over the time span of 200 years i would find 100 one armed violin players in history if i looked hard enough… skewing numbers is easy to do with a high enough reference pool… jimmy hendrix was high on acid just about all of the time and was the greatest guitar player that every lived, but that doesnt mean we should make acid and lsd legal now does it? mot of the historical people you mentioned owned slaves, but that doesnt mean we should legalize that again now does it?

    and just for the record, jefferson wasn’t the only person writing the declaration of independence. tom paine also had a very large roll since he was a professional writer of the time. now considering jeffersons standpoint on religion it is widely believed that the part about god in the declaration was part of Paine’s contribution.

    Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
    — Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by “Christian Nation” revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson’s thorough research of this matter.

    i could put hundreds more on jefferson bashing all of religion, but this on is poignant enough.

    now, for the alcohol. yes it is the most widely distributed drug on the planet… bust as i mentioned before and it seemed to be ignored, alcohol consumption can be measured to identify levels of toxicity to where the body can no longer normally function. breath tests is the easiest way to do this, that why they have “legal limits” to which you can consume alcohol and still operate a vehicle… you cant measure the toxicity of pot unless you take a blood sample, and you can’t take a blood sample without a warrant, and you can get a warrant without red tape… thus, making toxicity testing not only a pain in the @$$ but impossible… by the time all the red tape is covered the person in question would have ben given time for their body to process some of the crap out of their system… this is why there’s an imediate punishment of losing your license without question if you refuse a road side breath test… and even at that rate, like i said above, even that doesnt stop people from driving because the punishment for breaking that law is so low…

    im not saying we should be afraid of our government, we should be afraid of punishment. we are a society of greedy people all wanting more and more and not wanting to give up anything in return. we want all of our freedoms and dont want to have to earn them. im actually all for their being a higher punishment for drunk driving while we’re talking about it… a higher punishment makes breaking a law not worth the risk. this by no means the government is being more oppressive, it’s just making the parent figure of the law more stern. it’s not creating more unfair laws, it’s upping the reinforcement of the current ones. if rapists were put on death row instead of just spending years sitting comfy in jail, i bet the rape rates would plummet. if shoplifting in america would result in the loss of a limb taken on the spot, i bet there would be less petty-thefts. the problem with american prison systems isn’t the fact that the rules and laws are stupid… hell.. just about all of the laws have been the same for over a hundred years only excluding cyber laws and small amounts of stately shifting laws like gun control and dry counties… the problem with the american prison system is the lack of respect for the laws already in place. our whole system of punishment is like a child being put in time-out, and then when their time is served they are set free to commit the same crimes again and again. california messed up with the 3 strikes rule… instead of a long prison sentence, if you can’t get along in society by following the same rules as everyone else, you should be removed from society, permanently… shipped off to a tiny island where they can live and forage with all of the other criminals. im reminded of the movies “escape from LA.” and “escape from new york.”

    now back to the argument at hand. you can keep claiming that pot is harmless because it’s natural… well.. bears are natural and they’ll ruin your day if yo come across one naturally in its natural environment. and your right, no one has died medical from a pot overdose, but in cases of extreme paranoia cause by smoking too much pot and hallucinating caused by smoking the real good stuff, people have committed some pretty heinous crimes.

    there’s a reason why in this day and age with all the free thinkers and feel good mantras when one person calls another person a “pot head” it’s not a compliment. there’s a reason why when one person says to another person “good one, go smoke another one” its sarcastic speaking for “you’re an idiot.” there’s a reason why the phrase “getting high” is also referred to as “baked,” “stoned,” “torched,” “blitzed,” “WRECKED,” “WASTED,” “stoned out of my f’ing mind” and a whole bunch of very unappealing adjectives.. now put on your thinking cap and think real hard as to why smoking pot is surround by all of these negative terminologies derived from and created by all of the people that partake in the smoking of the refer and when you can come back to me with an answer as to why everything that describes a person while smoking pot is always portrayed with negative verbage, even by the very people smoking pot, then you can talk to me about how good it is for everyone.

    i thank you and rest my case.

  • Tiffany Edwards Hunt Says:

    That was fabulous.
    (Were you high when you wrote it? J/K!)
    Actually, as I was reading what you wrote, I was envisioning your words as a song.
    I think you just made some excellent points.
    I feel like drugs and alcohol contribute to the dumbing down of a system that is easier to maintain. Acid was a creative outlet for Hendrix, but it started out in society differently.
    Can you believe alcohol prohibition lasted 14 years? That is how we developed the terms “moonshine” and “speakeasy.” Look at every culture worldwide and you find people seeking mood alterations.
    The opportunity lies in regulation and taxation. The challenge is maintenance and management of those who are dumbed down to the point of worthlessness or go crazy.

  • Ken Says:

    @damon

    I see you wish to debate the argument on marijuana using Harry J. Anslinger methods, thoughts and convictions.

    Thus, your last question posed in your last paragraph has already been answered by you. I am sure you would also agree with Harry that smoking marijuana causes the “dark skinned” people to have sex with the “white woman.”

    Further, based on your own words, you have not one ounce of knowledge as to what marijuana is.

    Thank you and I rest and close my case!

  • damon Says:

    marijuana is a plant that over millions of years of evolution has created within the plant itself a chemically based defense mechanism to deter animals from eating thus harming the plant. the same characteristic can be found in other plants and such qualities can be seen in other species of live such a cane-toads and poison dart frogs.

    following the illogical with more illogical i just cant see marijuana having any positive impact on society. these people some how think that smoking pot is going to tip the scales and balance out civil equality between the hierarchy of the bureaucratic ruling class and the every day citizen, but it’s not. just because everyone can get high, that doesnt mean we’re all going to reach the 48 chromosome level of mentality… it wont make people any more spiritual. the medical properties of marijuana can already be better mimicked by current pharmaceuticals and yet be better controlled and regulated. anything else that can be manufactured by using the hemp can also be made using other means…

    so, if all of the bases of what marijuana could do for us is already covered except for the the smoking of it, then what really is the point? where are the benefits? we already have non-habit forming pain meds. we don’t need a newer cheaper version of one drug, we need an overhaul of the medical system. we dont need cheeper methods to make paper and fabrics, we need to tax the corporations outsourcing the jobs that used to be here in america ad redistribute the money across the taxes still being paid by the citizens of the united states even though they’ve lost their jobs. there’s already enough things in the united states that we pay extra taxes on, why add another one that prove no real gain for the everyday person but yet creates a whole world of other legal problems just as field testing and the plausible deniability of a crime because you cant prove just how high someone is…

    all of the pro pot arguments are based on faulty logic… legalize it because the prisons are too crowded because of the law offenders surrounding it? really? that’s taking away accountability for ones actions. if the law can be turned over because of prison over crowding then what other laws are going to follow? it’s a completely logical question. that the biggest point the pro pot people are pushing and it’s complete crap all the way to its core. it’s like saying lets legalize public drunkenness so the cops can concentrate on catching speeders, then the coops get to busy with that so lets get ride of speed limits and leave that judgement call to what ever the driver feels safe doing so the cops can concentrate on the drug dealers, opps, now the prisons are too full so lets legalize drugs so the cops can concentrate on the rapists and murders… and on and on and on… it’s a cycle that wont stop with the over turning of the legality of one substance.

    and again i go back to the legalization of one “naturally occurring plant,” to having at that point to legalize all naturally occurring plants. opium is used in many of the sedatives as one derivative or another. it grows naturally and the tar of the plant is easily collected then smoked… and yet you want to keep this easily obtainable narcotic illegal but legalize a separate one? even though they both grow naturally? and god says we have the right to use both plants?

    prison over crowding… crap… people need to take accountability for their actions, not change the rule.

    naturally occurring… crap… other plants occur naturally and are a proven danger to human society.

    all of the possible manufactured good… crap… we dont need more substitutes to flood the already cramped market with, we need a way to afford what’s already here.

    it can serve medial purposes… crap… we already have too many different medication for every symptom, most of which come in the non-habit forming, so prescription addiction is out of the argument.

    you all say let the government regulate it and we’ll happily pay the taxes for it… crap… well… not crap… just a bold face lie… every Tom, Dick, and Jane will have it growing in their windowsill circumventing the whole taxation charade… look, i smoke cigarettes. almost a pack a day, and if i could grow and process tobacco as easy as pot, i’d be doing it already, but instead i happily pay my extra tax on it because of the state i live in.

    and yes, my last question proposed in my last post does show my stand point on marijuana… i kind of figured the other posts would have pointed that out by now, but as i sated before, there are reasons it’s consistently cast in a negative light and referred to with negative adjectives by smokers and non-smoker alike. it’s because those negative adjectives describe what’s it’s doing, or else it wouldn’t be described that way. yes, there are people that say they smoke pot to “expand their horizons,” or to “transcend their thought boundaries,” but ask 100 people what they’re doing when they’re smoking a bowl and a vast majority of them will tell you one of the many variations of negative adjectives and verbs like the ones mentioned above. it’s not my own thoughts and convictions when it’s not me saying it. it would be the pot smokers blind and ironically negative convictions about what they themselves are doing.

    and yes, as always, moderation is the key to happiness, but alcohol can be accurately measured for it’s potency consistently and even account for change in body mass mathematically to be able to tell you that 2 beers is over the legal limit on average, you can’t measure the potency of a joint as easily… and if you can, prove it… oh wait… you can’t, just like you cant prove that the kid that hit a girl with his car in my town 9 months ago was stoned out of his mind while driving even though passengers in the car admitted to smoking before leaving their house. they couldn’t prove accidental homicide due to DUI (driving under the influence of drugs and alcohol) because at the time of the accident they couldn’t prove that the kid was still high, even though his 2 passengers both admitted to smoking before leaving the house. the kid walked after spending 90 days in jail for homicide due to failure to control his vehicle instead of life in prison for DUI vehicular homicide. and you people want to legalize a drug that you can test of even regulate the potency of?

    you’re just as blind and the government whose rules you’re trying to usurp.

  • konagold3 Says:

    Aloha Damon

    mahalo for proving my point with your distorted diatribe

    the point about the ovens and Jews was not anti Semitic rather it pointed out that YOUR point of view leads down that same slippery slope which leads to the very same man made genocide that you want to blame on God

    I don’t pick and chose from the bible because it is not worthy enough to rate as the best source of that kind of information

    so again you shoot yourself in the foot assuming that I am basing what I write on the bible being the best and only authority further that foot you shot yourself in was in your mouth

    your intolerance for folks and the concept of freedom is interesting

    I believe your dogma will be run over by your own karma

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  • k Says:

    Damon, in the interest of accuracy, THC is stored on the lymph nodes and will not “process out” of the body by the time one gets to the policde station. The real problem is that a smoker could have had his last hit two weeks prior and still show THC in the blood. The only way to accurately judge impairment is subjective much like field sobriety tests for alcohol. Pot today can be very, very strong and can indeed cause impairment behind the wheel.

  • k Says:

    Damon, while I niether agree or disagree with you, your arguments are incredibly faulty. . .and quite loquascious for someone who rags on a well-known victim for the same “crime.” If one needs to take responsibility for one’s actions, your friend Lackey would be in jail and not driving around risking everyone’s freedom to life.

  • Tiffany Edwards Hunt Says:

    Psst, k, I think this is a different Damon… The one you are thinking of is blocked from commenting on this site…

  • damon Says:

    yes, different damon… but apparently the same views. and my argument isn’t faulty at all. it’s simple logic. you people act as is smoking pot is the definition of all freedom and to be denied the legality of pot equates to the damning of all human rights…

    in the argument for legality the con’s far outweigh the pro’s, that is if any pro’s actually exist at all. the argument for pot are frivolous at best… grasping at straws to try to form any sort of legitimacy. an argument based on bloated statistics, misinformation, and bad logic is all the pro pot smokers have used to base their argument on. not a single credible piece of information with sound logic has appeared anywhere. it’s like watching toddlers trying to come up with reasons why they should be able to have candy before dinner.

  • Kim Jordan Says:

    Damon….
    I have taken alot of grief for ‘thinking’ Pot is not all good. But to the ‘Pro’ uses for pot.
    I am a cancer survivor. Chemo made me extremely ill for nearly a full day each treatment. Even at that point, I could not even sip ginger ale. I tried to smoke just a bit of pot … and it made such a great difference. I could sip and soon actually drink the ginger ale. I got hungry and was able to start eating and regaining my strenght. As close to a miracle as you could give me at that point.
    Last Summer, my Sister was in the final stages of cancer. The Doctor had given her an “appitite enhancement” drink. She couldn’t even drink the stuff. A relative brought some pot for her to smoke. She didn’t really want to, but was willing to try anything. The 2 nights I was with her when she smoked, she actually ate a pretty good meal and was able to stay awake for a couple extra hours. She said her pain was lessened, making it easier for her to sleep.
    She passed away 3 weeks later.
    Any comfort you can give someone fighting for their life, or just some quality to the time they have left …. is a “Pro”!

    Anything else, I’m up in the air. But I just had to reply as to this being very important to me.

    RIP Sue, Love you forever,
    Kim

  • konagold3 Says:

    Aloha Damon

    the US has ~5% of the worlds population

    ~25% of the worlds prisoners

    consumes ~53% of the worlds supply of pharmaceutical painkillers

    the land of the not so free

    the home of the barely brave

    and the pharmacy of the vastly over medicated

    the above is well informed and accurate and you can not refute it

    as for you just saying that there is no logical argument when such a statement is only supported by ignorant assumptions and blowhard bluster … well ,, such is comical

    so much for your bogus claim that freedom advocates use bloated statistics, misinformation,

    the above facts show that the lock-em up philosophy you are a mind slave to is a failed social policy in a country supposedly dedicated to free enterprise and individual liberty

    such doubling down on totalitarianism is a far greater problem than any you can delusionally conjure up about pot being legalized

    drug problems are medical problems and should have never been delegated to law enforcement

    anti pot laws are inherently racist and sexist Jim Crow laws which continue to this day to target and subjugate minorities with 5 times the rate for the number of blacks and Hispanics being busted for pot than their percentages of the population

    there only two classes of folks who benefit from prohibition

    the kops and the robbers

    it is a evil racket which if it was not hiding under the supposed color of law would be easily recognized for what it is racketeering RICO violations of extortion blackmail kidnapping and theft

    there is one indisputable reason for legalization which you ignore and totally fail to understand

    INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM endowed by as Jefferson put it OUR CREATOR

    pity

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  • konagold3 Says:

    pot legalization [ =’s taxation and regulation] accomplishes the following

    1 PRO: taxes generated estimated at 7 billion yearly nationally

    contrasted to : taxes spent to make it illegal and enforce such [ one trillion dollars since 1973]

    2 regulation

    pro regulation limits usage to age, time, and place ; and card ID’s so minors are not given access

    contrasted to : kids all over the country when surveyed answer that it is currently easier to get pot than beer or tobacco

    3 regulation

    pro creates peaceful agricultural, retail, and regulatory jobs taking moneys otherwise spent in the black-market and applies those moneys to the money-multiplier Job-multiplier effect of a legal level playing field

    contrasted to huge unregulated black-market economy untaxed

    4 regulation/taxation pro frees law enforcement and courts

    contrasted to court back logs taking years to resolve

    5. regulation

    pro insures pot of uniform consistent standards packaged and accurately dried and weighed

    contrasted to mold and seeded or immature e.g. potpourri

    [no stems and seeds that we don’t need Konagold is pono weed]

  • konagold3 Says:
  • damon Says:

    1. the taxes will be circumvented by people growing it themselves. also, the federal, state, and local court systems are making those tax dollers back by collecting on fine from the people busted in possession of pot, here where i live that’s $125 per person for just possession, not counting the fine for greater drug related charges.

    2. we currently have the same standard form of identification for the purchase and consumption of alcohol and it’s not stopping the kids from getting their hands on it. its a broken system that cannot be fixed by adding another substance to the over 21 list. all that’s going to do is make it more easily accessible to minors instead of preventing them from getting their hands on it. a mother last week was arrested for furnishing alcohol for her kid’s parties, in essence a prime example of a flawed existing system to keep it out of the hands of the youth of america. it doesnt work with alcohol and cigarettes so how in the hell is it going to work with pot?

    3. 2% of the3 american population farm food for the other 98%. farmers are having a hard enough time finding help, how is pot going to create more jobs by providing a luxury when america is having issues with providing the necessities in the same economic field?

    4. again i point out to the fact that people need to be accountable for breaking the laws instead of changing the laws to lower conviction rates. if this philosophy were to be used on any other crime causing equal conviction rates it wouldnt hold water. yes, america doe shave a high rate of incarceration for drug use, but not all of that percentage is pot use, so to say that the percentage of pot users if bogging down the prison system when really you’re referring to the drug community as a whole is misinformation working at it’s best.

    5. the quality to high grade pot isn’t really a pro argument. i think what you were looking for would be potency consistency… but since pot is a plant and is subject to mutation through evolution, you can’t permanently control all factors surrounding it.

    when you talk about how many people america has in it’s prison system you’re forgetting the other end of things. yes we have the highest number of people in prisons in the world, but we also have the crime rates in the world as well. we top every single crime chart across the board. it’s the law of statistic at work. of course we have the highest imprisonment rate it the world, it only makes sense since we have the highest crime rate in the world. agin with your misinformation. not all of your 53% is convicted drug users as you would want everyone to believe. that percentage is composed of all crimes committed, not just drug related. and another reason why some countries drug related imprisonment rates are so low is because in some countries the punishment for dealing drugs is death or dismemberment… they dont get to make it to prison, they are dealt with swiftly, thus causing the vast majority of that culture to not want anything to do with any sort of drug.

  • konagold3 Says:

    Aloha Damon

    1. it is either your point three or point one you cant have it both ways

    we live in a society were folks think that beans originate in a can and milk is grown in cartons

    not many folks grow their own tomatoes

    we are a consumer society

    one could brew their own beer or wine yet not many do and far more taxes will be gathered from sales that the occasional bust as few bust but many sales in comparison

    so you again fail in logic and make foolish silly assumptions as most would go to the 7-11 than spend 90 to 120 days to grow a joint

    cant win for loosin can ya Damon

    2 card ID has greatly LOWERED teen consumption

    no system even the draconian approach you offer would ever be one hundred percent effective

    only a fool could argue otherwise

    3 more agg. jobs AND more sales jobs AND more regulatory jobs not ONLY agg. jobs

    and ALL out of the black market and taxed

    you fail to acknowledge that important aspect while you focus on absurd unfounded and easily dismissed objections

    by focusing on only one type of job and diminishing the gains to farmers you think you have a valid argument

    WRONG

    and it is so weak that is only worth dismissal via one short snort of disgust

    you continually exhibit faulty strawman arguments which are easily dismissed and your greatest fault of argument is that even when facts totally disprove your whacked out ideas and silly assumptions you still can not let your ego admit that you are mistaken

    it only goes to prove that one can lead the horse to water or one can introduce the mule to the two by four

    4 it is not only the people who need to be responsible it is the law which needs to live up to the constitution in the first place

    you fail to recognize that the reason for the American Revolution is so that Government would not have the power over individual liberty and types of unjust laws that British Government unwisely imposed on American colonialist

    gains which have been all but lost to the war on ‘some drugs’ exemption to the Bill of Rights

    in this case it is not the people who have broken the law

    the law itself breaks the law the supreme law of the land the constitution

    yet you want to support the American Drug Gulag

    way to go Damon

    5 Damon has repeatedly assigned thought contrary to what I have expressed and ONCE AGAIN been totally wrong

    quality control and standardization benefits the public just the same way weights and measures laws and standards do in the purchase of any commodity

    further you have some sort of unfortunate cognitive dissonance and disconnect that does not allow you to understand what you read even when it is relatively straight forward

    for instance I said that the US consumes 53% of the worlds pharmaceutical pain medication

    you with your mental difficulties and apparent cognitive decline turned that into me saying something about convicted drug users which I never mentioned

    that’s your invention and phrase entirely

    it truly is pitiful to see you struggle to understand ideas too big for your head and it is oh so sad your inability to understand such a simple thing that it would be wise before you embarrass yourself any further that you step back and consider the words attributed to Davey Crockett ‘be sure you’re right then go ahead”

    unless of course it is just a case of writing while under the influence

    adverbs adjectives and alcohol don’t mix

    friends shouldn’t let friends write drunk

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  • konagold3 Says:

    THE UNITED STATES VERSUS THE WORLD

    The United States recently became the country with the most people incarcerated and the highest incarceration rate of any nation in the world. This high level of incarceration does not stem from abnormally high crime rates, but is instead linked more strongly to our nation’s sentencing practices and drug policies, both of which have been developed to be “tough on crime.” This “tougher” and harsher stance is not as effective as approaches other nations use, which focus more on crime prevention and rehabilitation.
    THE UNITED STATES IMPRISONS MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY OTHER NATION IN THE WORLD.
    •During 2002, the United States prison and jail population exceeded 2 million for the first time in history.
    •In 2004, the nation’s prison population is counted at 1.47 million and the total number of people incarcerated is 2.1 million.
    •The United States has the highest rate of incarceration at 726 prisoners per 100,000 people.
    • The second highest are Russia, Belarus, and Bermuda, all with a rate of 532 prisoners per 100,000 people.
    • The third is Palau, with 523 prisoners per 100,000 people.
    •Western European nations have much lower rates, with England and Wales at 142, Germany at 96, and France at 91 per 100,000 people.
    •Many non-Western European nations also have significantly lower rates, with Cuba at 190 prisoners per 100,000 people, China with 118, and India with 29.
    •More than three fifths of the world’s nations have incarceration rates below 150 per 100,000 people.
    •The current rate of incarceration in the United States is higher than the Soviet Union’s in 1979, which had an incarceration rate of 660 per 100,000 people.

    HIGHER CRIME RATES DO NOT FULLY EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE IN INCARCERATION RATES.

    •Compared to other industrialized nations, the United States has similar rates of victimization. In many areas American citizens are actually at less of a “risk of victimization than their counterparts in other nations.”
    •Overall, then, the United States does not have significantly higher rates of crime or victimization than other industrial nations.

    more at

    http://www.publiceye.org/defendingjustice/pdfs/factsheets/9-Fact%20Sheet%20-%20US%20vs%20World.pdf

  • damon Says:

    the difference between what should be done and what could be done are far, far apart from each other. taxation of the substance is a utopian idea. it would work… in a perfect world. yes, we do live in a consumer driven society, but the people growing pot in their closets aren’t exactly America’s brain children. people dont brew their own beer and wine in large because of the difficulty or set up and process. pot on the other hand is quite possibly the easiest plat to grow, it even thrives without human intervention to regulate pH and soil quality… hell, when people drop their seeds on the ground they sprout with ease. putting the cultivation of pot and the brewing of any alcohol on the same level is absurd… plant seed, place in sun, add water, job done. you dont need complicated hydro set ups. the people around here just plant them in he bushes around the corn fields then come back in the fall. it’s not rocket science, thus easy to accomplish in any windowsill garden. it’s nice to sit here ant think of the millions of dollars that could possibly be gained by the taxation of pot, but in truth, growing pot is easier than growing food.

    pointing out what our government set out to do and what our government has become is like comparing an apple to the tree it would grow into. the initial standpoint of our government was self rule, which i has been doing since the revolutionary war. back then it wasnt that drugs were illegal, it’s that they wen’t illegal, meaning no legislation revoled around what to do about them, they just existed, just like bath salts and that K-2 stuff. they recently just made both of those illegal, and yet for a short time people could do them without persecution. it’s not that they were deemed legal, its the fact that there was no legislation written about them.

    it must be nice in your world where putting forth a system of regulation means it’s full proof. id cards may be doing better than it’s predecessor, but it’s still failing to do it’s job. kids just last week kids got arrested at their proem for being drunk at the school function. id’ing for pot will prove to be just as useful, and that’s not useful at all.

    and with pot being legalized for medical use we’re just going to trade add onto the crime pile. instead of possession being the only problem, the judicial system is going to get flooded by fraud claims by people claiming they have chronic back pain just to gt their hands on a medical marijuana card. “ouch, ouch i have migraines every day i need medical pot even though there’s already migraine medication readily available” will be the newest con of the time.

    and again i point to economics as the problem in ag. america used to grow most of it’s own produce, and ever since transportation became cheeper than labor, we’ve been getting it outsourced. higher import taxes to induce localized farming, the recreation of jobs that used to be here with the farming, shipping, receiving and sales, would be my utopian idea for that, but again, we don’t live in a perfect world.

    we’re talking about the american government here. the greediest most self serving government on the planet. don’t you think that if the government thought they could turn a dime selling pot as easily as you propose that we wouldnt have already legalized it by now? it’s safe to say that the american government has spent millions of dollars running cost / benefit analysis’s on this subject to see if they could turn it into a viable business without having to spend more than they earn on it. yes, under the current economic standards it would look like a great business to get into, but when it becomes legalized, then popularized, the demand price plummets because of the ease to obtain the substance outside of the regulated realm. the ony reason pot demands the price that it’s at already is because it is a black market item. take that away and it’ll be worth as much as dandelions because it grows just as easily. yes, you could pay more for the government good stuff… but the same could be said when making the decision between a 12-pack of Sam Adams vs. a 30-pack of Natural light… people dont mind sacrificing quality for quantity, so if all i have to do is put some seeds in dirt and water them if there’s a drought to get a medium grade source of pot as opposed to paying what ever ridiculously high price im sure the government would slap onto their product, i’d be fencing off a portion of my yard.

    your economic mindset around pot is so far off it’s astounding. yes it would create jobs… for other countries where it’d be cheeper to grow. so in essence, we’d just be screwing ourselves. do you honestly think farmers would pay americans to grow pot? you’re insane. if they did legalize it, it’d be grown out of the country to take advantage of other countries lack of a minimum wage base. it’s already been proven that profit margins are more important than american jobs, and you’re nuts to think that pot isn’t going to go down the same road… so all of your hopes and dreams about pot bringing back the ag. industry aren’t just diluted, they’re pipe dreams. and yes, the pun is intended.

  • Ken Says:

    @damon

    Hypothetical question:

    If there was a NATIONWIDE referendum vote where the choice was either legalize marijuana, (and by that I mean regulate it, tax it and sell it – in the EXACT same manner and methods as alcohol and tobacco is today – that means no street dealers, back yard growers – or the religious pastor – or medical quack – but marijuana grown under strict controlled conditions where potency is determined and quality control is exactly the same) OR we make ALL alcohol and tobacco illegal – just like marijuana is today.

    Which version do you think would pass?

    Once you answer that question, then please tell me why you are so vigilant to keep marijuana illegal, no matter why you formulate the positions you have, even admitting that there is no ascertainable proof that smoking marijuana alone has caused one human death, but remain silent on what alcohol and tobacco has shown to do to society?

    http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/

    http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

    Forget about marijuana legalization.

    Forget about DRUNK drivers and STONED drivers.

    Tell me why you say nothing about two of the three leading LEGAL causes of human death a year?

  • damon Says:

    … really, i can do without the alcohol, but cigarettes are legal because suicide isn’t illegal… yes it’s frowned upon and doctors and psychiatrists go to great lengths to keep people with suicidal tendencies alive, but the grim reality is, suicide is legal. no one goes to trial for wanting to kill themselves, so cigarettes will never be made illegal… that would be like making salt illegal because it gives you high blood pressure which could lead to a heart attack… yes, second hand smoke has proven to be detrimental, but car exhaust is not different, and yet, no one cares about the amount of carcinogens coming out of the end of a tail pipe, just as long as they can get to work on time.

    but, sine you mention it, giving the nation an ultimatum is kind of in the opposite end of the freedom that the pot people are pushing for.

    the truth of the matter is this, the war on drugs is the same thing as the war on terror. it’s a war not meant to be won, but perpetuated. drugs and alchol are permitted in the united states because it keeps people passive, silent, and even provides a bit of population control. you mean to tell me with all of the drug dogs, boarder crossings, and satellite surveillance at the disposal of the united states government they can’t keep drugs out of american communities? they can find any one, any where, at any time and you honestly believe drugs are making their way here illegally? so they post a 1 hour documentary on places close to the mexican boarder where people dig tunnels from one house to the other, that must explain everything!

    it’s a sidetracking mechanism to keep intelligent minds arguing over things that will never change, or change in such a way that the total combined effort will seem insignificant by the time we’re done we’ll all feel like morons by the time it’s finished.

    you think it’s a coincidence that we invade afghanistan and the rest of the middle east and heroin explodes again into america?

    don’t you find it a bit odd that all of those people sitting on wallstreet havent interrupted a single day of trading after months of effort, but one musical act (rage against the machine) cut the trading day short by having a guerrilla concert on the front steps with only a few hours effort?

    it’s all just a machine to give us hope that things can change if enough people jump on the band wagon while in the mean time the powers that be watch as we forget about the failing economy, the useless war, and mountainous oil prices?

    yes, most of use can multitask and pay attention to a few of the national dramas going on, but while we’re doing that america is at the front lines of economic imperialism in africa, setting up new plane routes to get lawyers, surveyors, and business people over there to claim this new source of oil.

    i simply started commenting on this thread to say fighting for the legalization of pot is a moronic waste of time, and yet i got sucked into it. fighting for a new freedom won’t stop us from losing the others. if they do legalize pot we’ll find ourselves in a whole new world of regulation. suspicion of private cultivation and illegal private distribution and a whole slew of new laws and bi-laws and federal mandates and guidelines will come spewing out of this new legal dragon, and while they’re giving the pot people everything they’ve asked for, hidden in the fine print will be lays hidden so deep in obscurity that by the time we realize what’s really going on we’ll stuck with the consequences of the action of the people that didn’t really think things through when they were convincing people to vote for their cause.

    when it comes to marijuana it’ll be a proverbial shell game. states will allow it, and the fed will clean house, because that’s how they make money in the long run. yes, it does cost money for helicopter flybys and imprisonment, but theres 3.7 million people in the united sates plus a few illegal immigrants to add into the mix, ad when they get busted for even minor possession they get a fine. (which starts at around $100 at it’s lowest level) so you take the percentage of people getting busted on possession charges on all levels, multiply that by the average fine amount (which is well over the $100 mark) and you have the grim reality that keeping drugs illegal is making way more money than making it legal ever could.

    i read my local news paper today. 23 people got popped for possession and 7 for dui’s. this is a fairly common occurrence for my town as it covers the news of my small city and it’s surrounding townships. actually these numbers fall close to the average in the case… dui’s go for about $2500 in fines and court fees plus what ever damages they have to covers for things like telephone polls and the what not. so add the fine money to the average possession fine and you’ll see that my area made about $13,000 last week. with heroin on the rise i expect that number to grow at lighting pace. and these numbers come week in and week out. there’s a reason all the cops in my town drive either the expedition or the charger for their police cruisers. in a bigger city to the north with a police force 3 times the size of my cities for a population 10 times my cities they all drive expeditions and chargers. the reason is drugs being illegal turns a profit on the local, state, and federal levels… the only problem is the only thing being looked at is federal spending on prisons, because that’s what prisons are, federal. if you look at state incomes for drug charges vs. losses for imprisonment for drug charges you’ll see thing slanted towards the states making money.

    all making it legal is going to do is create more jobs to be outsourced for a product that will be taxed so high that it’ll make buying a pack of cigarettes look like casual spending. we’ll end up losing jobs, because without the fines coming in on local possession charges local police departments and judicial systems would go belly up in a matter of months. leaving no one to call when the guy next door comes into your yard and pulls the pot plants out of your garden.

    like i said, do you honestly think the federal government hasn’t already spent all of the money, time and effort on cost / benefit analysis’s to see if making pot legal could possibly turn a better profit for the federal government than keeping it illegal? for christ sakes they’ve found a way to jack up gas prices to 3 times the cost of gas in just 15 years.

    give it up, it’s not going to happen. and if by the slim chance it does happen, it’s not going to be in the pretty utopian ideological way that you’re picturing it. the federal government is like an angry spouse, even if you win the argument in proving them wrong, you’ll still find yourself with the short end of the stick.

  • damon Says:

    sorry… caught a typo… where it says 3.7 million… it should be 370 million… was on a roll and wasnt paying attention.

  • damon Says:

    also, havin had a feeling that much of the statistics and info provided from the proside of this argument were wiki-related, i decided to check it out.

    what i found is the number of people in prison in the united states has less to do with the crimes committed than the length of stay while in prison.

    little do to with incarceration reasoning. other countries have higher amount of crime, we just hold them longer.

    and when it comes to incarceration by drug use, you have to look at drugs as a whole, not just play the sympathy card for pushing the legality for pot. now the amount of people in prison for crimes which involed only pot and not some other drug is only 2.7% of the total prison population in the state system. people held for a marijuana only offense comprises 1.6% of the prison population at the state level. the amount of people in state prisons for just possession alone is only 0.7%. but the real kicker is the amount of people incarcerated for their first marijuana offense is only 0.3%

    when you take it to the federal level, which you have to screw up big with pot to make it to the federal level of imprisonment, the number of people incarcerated for possession is much less.

    what the pro pot people would want you to believe is that all of the people in prison for drug offenses are people in possession of pot, but that’s simply not the case. the fact of the matter is they are pulling the wool over the eyes of everyone by trying to convince you that the drug policies on pot are too strict by counting the sum total of all drug offenders, that means crack, cocaine, meth, bath salts, heroin and prescription pill and trying to make you believe that the numbers they keep spouting off are only people in prison for pot. the reality is the number of people in prison for a pot related offense is marginal when put up against the total number of people in prison for all drug related crimes.

    it’s just more misinformation, skewed numbers, and slanted talk.

  • Ken Says:

    @damon

    You really should learn the art of debate over that of being the equivalent of a 5 year old getting a drum set for Christmas.

  • Mokibra Says:

    I have read these comments with fascination, wonder. Rev. Shields speaks from not merely the hypothetical but from a library of experience.

    I will be a short piece, hopefully short, in reference to Roger Christie, tomorrow on KGU at 5:00 PM. (May 2, 2013). The thrust of my commentary will be to debunk that Roger Christie has suffered violations of Constitutional guarantees. It is difficult to wade through the hysteria surrounding this case, emotions run high, pun intended. There would be no more welcome supporter than I to jump on board the Christie train if facts, evidence, and court documents supported the contention that he has been “denied the right to bail”. Or that he has been “denied a right to Speedy Trial.”

    And though the prosecutions, or persecutions for drug offenses is in and of it’s self offensive, and contrary to the evolving standards of a civilized society: And I ascribe to all means of redress of State/Federal authorities including civil disobedience: In the matter at hand it is clear that the behaviors of the defendant, the behaviors of his attorney’s, coupled with the great latitude of discretion available to the court seem dubious on their face; but upon scrutiny the denial of bail, and the protracted nature of this case as it moves to trial this July, can be rightfully owned by Mr. Christie, his behaviors post first raid in 2010, and the delays as well can be rested at the feet of his various attorney’s who failed to object to “continuances” instituted by other defendants:

    So though I don’t want to digress into the larger debate here, with regard the legitimacy of views expressed: It is clear, that all expressions, even those false on their face serve function in that they provide a means and a stimulus for critical thinking. And through this process derive a closer apprehension of the multivariate dynamics, and there are many, that constitute this debate: More importantly mine is the hope that a constructive plan, approach, and design will emerge that will enable each of us, to play our part in embracing liberty. Of allowing each and the other the right to conduct themselves within the context of their own conscience when to do so does not demonstrate “actual harm”. Not pretend harm, or maybe harm, or could be harm, but actual harm: for only in that instance does there exist compelling interest for governments to intercede………….ke me aloha………

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